It's extremely hard for me to believe in a God.

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"[the U.S. Government's chief DNA sequence analyst] reported that genetic sequencing studies prove some "punctuated origin of AIDS event" took place during the mid-1970s giving rise, virtually simultaneously, to at least ten different HIV "clades" (or genetic subtypes) associated with ten different distinguishable AIDS epidemics in Africa alone. The most likely cause of this widespread bizarre zoonosis was some man-made (i.e., iatrogenic) event involving chimpanzees, this group reckoned."http://originofaids.com/Human error is most likely at fault, however we can only really guess where it came from.I think you're misinterpreting the 'disease' argument. I think people aim more to say that no God would allow it to happen.

You find yourself capable of loving a god who has every ability to fix the suffering of completely innocent lives, but doesnt? What, is heaven busy this time of the century, or is he just lazy =/And, I know I graduated college, and work with sciences and finding cures for said diseases, so do tell me, How did we create HIV when it transfered to us from chimps. How did that one work?

We didnt 'create' it, but its spread and proliferation was most likely due to human error.

Originally Posted By: A.W.It puzzles me too when I hear people tell me that they don't believe in God because there are a lot of bad things going on in the world.Why does it puzzle you? It's no different of the other size on the fence. It puzzles them how you can believe in God when there's no concrete evidence that he exists.Think of it like this: Your faith in God is just as strong as those who don't believe in him. No matter how hard they try, non-believers will never change your faith. And no matter how hard you try to explain it to them, you will never change how non-believers feel about the existance of God.I'm itching real badly to throw in a few ideas of the bad things that are happening, but I won't because I'm smelling a bag fight coming up. So, can't we all just get along?

You can't be so tender-hearted about these things. Don't be mean and I know that's what you try so hard not to come off as but when it comes down to YOUR FAITH and YOUR LOVE then you don't back down. I'm not trying to say engage in combat. But if you're truly passionate about your faith you don't let someone degrade or make you look like you don't know what you're talking about it. This isn't directed at Virtual Star because I love her to death. This is just in general.See Armondo, for me personally, I'm passionate about my belief in and love for God despite who says what when where why and how. I know what He's done for me. I know what and who He is. And there is no human being or element or "matter" that can prove otherwise. In no way am I going to let anyone completely disregard the very thing that gave me life. The whole nonsense of "if God is real then why would He allow aids and death and cancer" is exactly what it is... nonsense. Human beings aren't perfect, this world isn't perfect so how on earth do people expect things to be "perfect". There's no such thing. If that's the case. Why do people kill? Why do people rape? Why are their massacres? Why were there lynchings? Man does not DESERVE "paradise" or "perfection" and they prohibit their own peace. But instead of taking responsibility for their actions they of course blame the god they choose to or not to believe in.

so god is responsible for all the good but we are responsible for all the badand now who is responsible for us?just trying to get this straight here."The gods can either take away evil from the world and will not, or, being willing to do so, cannot; or they neither can nor will, or lastly, they are both able and willing. If they have the will to remove evil and cannot, then they are not omnipotent. If they can, but will not, than they are not benevolent. If they are neither able nor willing, then they are neither omnipotent nor benevolent. Lastly, if they are both able and willing to annihilate evil, how does it exist?" --- Epicures, 300 B.C.

Quote:so god is responsible for all the good but we are responsible for all the badand now who is responsible for us?just trying to get this straight here.I didn't say that. I'm just trying to defend in this unfair accusation. Nor can I get farther into this discussion without being blamed for "stuffing religion down people's throats". That's why I directed my post at Armondo because since we share the same beliefs he understands what I mean. But, are people not responsible for themselves? And why bother wondering if you don't believe in Him?

I wouldn't accuse you of that hon!

I believe people are totally responsible for them selves and should never blame or thank god for the actions of themselves or others.
What makes you think god is a "he"?

"If they can, but will not, than they are not benevolent."The counter-argument is that removing evil may itself be a greater evil: that evil can only be removed at the expense of free will (since a will that can only choose the good is not free), and that free will is a greater good.

quite true and very astute! however, there is more to free will than the choice between good and evil

Originally Posted By: JapanFan14 Originally Posted By: CiderHow, might I ask, could we create AIDS or other sicknesses like the Bubonic Plague? Why don't YOU research how AIDS came about. please.people say they don't believe in God. and the excuse they use not to believe in Him is all the negative things about the world when it's really THEIR fault. load of bullcrap. Why don't YOU research how the transference of diseases from animals to humans is something that has happened many many times, please. Why do you think Europeans had so many diseases that caused mass death to those who had not civilized for nearly the same amount of time as they had? Oh, right, it's because they had been in very close contact with animals for longer, allowing a larger amount of mutated animal diseases that affected humans. And no one seemed to have any argument about the Bubonic Plague. To refute a statement, you have to at least acknowledge everything in the statement, not only the ones you have an argument for.Explain to me, why is it the fault of some poor African girl when the only way she can afford to live and allow her family to survive. Originally Posted By: JapanFan14The whole nonsense of "if God is real then why would He allow aids and death and cancer" is exactly what it is... nonsense. Human beings aren't perfect, this world isn't perfect so how on earth do people expect things to be "perfect". There's no such thing. If that's the case. Why do people kill? Why do people rape? Why are their massacres? Why were there lynchings? Man does not DESERVE "paradise" or "perfection" and they prohibit their own peace. But instead of taking responsibility for their actions they of course blame the god they choose to or not to believe in. Who created humans and, therefore, the imperfectness of them (in your opinion)? God. It's simple logic required here to see that it would then be because of God that human's do what they do, so He made it so that they would be unable to deserve paradise/perfection. If they don't believe in God, then how can they blame Him? They're not blaming Him, they're arguing against the existence, and using this as a point in a proof by contradiction (in essence, if there was a God, X wouldn't happen; X happens, therefore there is no God).By the way, I'm Agnostic. I find it hard to believe that what the Bible says, as well as most religious texts, really defines what the god would be like if there is one.

Quote:By the way, I'm Agnostic. I find it hard to believe that what the Bible says, as well as most religious texts, really defines what the god would be like if there is one. Good for you, but what's the point of trying to challenge Japan's faith? No matter how many comments or questions you throw at her, she's going to stand on her ground.So, stop trying to turn this into an ugly argument and let it be. She believes in God, and you don't. No one's 100% right or wrong. Time to move on now.

i agree, no point in debating cults, it never gets anywhere. Except... you know... except war... prejudice... other then that.

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedI wouldn't accuse you of that hon!I believe people are totally responsible for them selves and should never blame or thank god for the actions of themselves or others.What makes you think god is a "he"? lol I gotcha. God the Father and God the Son is how I got that. That's just me.And Cider I'm not in the mood to get into it with you because no offense but it's kind of a waste of my time. You don't believe what I believe and you refuse to accept or even consider what I have to say so why should I bother answering to you?

Lol. Oh Java, it's good to see you again.

I have considered everything you've said on the subject, and I've pointed out the holes in your logic. I have never read the Bible, so I don't know if it says anything about the topics I've mentioned in my previous post, and I'd like to know whether it does or does not from someone who has read the Bible. I don't exactly appreciate it when people ask an argument to be stopped (or decide that they won't reply) because something has been said which may have no logical answer to. Especially when it is completely on-topic, since it is pointing out reasons why one might not believe in a certain god.

Originally Posted By: CiderI have considered everything you've said on the subject, and I've pointed out the holes in your logic. I have never read the Bible, so I don't know if it says anything about the topics I've mentioned in my previous post, and I'd like to know whether it does or does not from someone who has read the Bible. I don't exactly appreciate it when people ask an argument to be stopped (or decide that they won't reply) because something has been said which may have no logical answer to. Especially when it is completely on-topic, since it is pointing out reasons why one might not believe in a certain god. Oh my goodness the ruuuudeness. Tatiana/Mrs. Rose is about to speak for me. Girls know what I'm talking about so this is not the time buddy. Seriously, my patience is on an all time low for you. JUST because I said I don't have time for you doesn't mean I don't have a "logical answer". Honestly, I DON'T have the time nor the desire to speak to you about whether you believe in God or not. And get into it. If you're so determined to get an answer you can WAIT till Tatiana is gone so I don't come off as a... bumchock. It's NOT the time. And if you couldn't get those little bit of hints then I can't help you there. I'm trying not to come off rude so take the hint!

Originally Posted By: CiderI don't exactly appreciate it when people ask an argument to be stopped (or decide that they won't reply)Reason why I said that is because, in the end, there's no point in arguing. The existance of God is going to go on and on and there will always be two sides. No one will be 100% right or wrong, no matter how much faith or scientific facts one has. Some people believe in God, others don't. It's that simple.Now let's all go out for some frosty, chocolate milkshakes!

Quote:chocolate milkshakes!I could use that right about now! lol

Cider, some biblical references on the general problem of pain:Genesis 2:16-17, 3:1-19 (the Fall)The whole of the book of JobLuke 13:1-5You may not find these as clear-cut as you would like. Nor is there much discussion on specific topics - the Bible is more concerned with principles.