Catholic Belief...

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"Sticking with the strict interpretation, what if the husband or wife is infertile, due to illness, inherited condition, or old age? Can the couple have sex, even if there is no possibility of pregnancy?"

Think outside the box, man. If you're talking about somebody who believes in the Bible, you're also talking about somebody who believes God can do what He wants...regardless of what our limited knowledge of science may attempt to prohibit. According to the Bible, Christ was born outside the realm of our scientific limitations...why not others?

So it's fine for a guy to have sex with his wife who's had her ovaries removed, because she still might miraculously get pregnant? That would be a first.Maybe it's OK for a guy to have sex with another guy; just because people's interpretation of science says they won't produce a child, who's to say it won't result in a pregnancy and a baby? God has been known to work in mysterious ways.I hope I don't get my left hand pregnant.

So, if a woman is catholic, she cannot have sex with a man that is wearing a condom, regardless of whether he is catholic? That is confusing.

VARIATION people!The general belief from Catholics is they do not believe in the use of contraception... no matter if they are a guy or girl and whether they are the ones actually using the contraception. But whether the person actually goes by the rule is up to the person. Like what about the Catholics in Africa where AIDs is a plague... even the Cardinals (a postion which makes them eligible to become Pope) from Africa wish to allow contraception like condoms to be used to reduce the spreading of such diseases.Its not only the laity but also the leader within the Catholic denomination who share different oppinions.

RE: stan_apolloOf course she can, no ones physically stopping her or her partner from using protection.But according to the Catholic belief they shouldn't be using a condom, nor should they be having sex outside of marriage, nor should they be doing it for pleasure, etc, etc. I think people mistook what I was saying before as an absolute truth. I was just saying, that's what the church says. I was saying how stupid this situation was, and the fact that if anybody said they wouldn't wear a condom because of their religious beliefs is being absolutely ridculous.And it's not Catholics that are agaist contraception (well, some are), it's the Catholic Church. What I said above is what the Church says, of course there is variation with people, because well, they're people. The Church however doesn't have any variation in it's beliefs.That isn't to say that they won't change their mind in a couple hundred years (as they have in the past), but that's the Church's stance now.

The position of the Catholic Church as you represented it on one particular issue Sexxibck, was this:'Catholics can ONLY marry Catholics. If the person they want to marry isn't not Catholic, that person must convert in order for the couple to get married in the Catholic church'My point was, and is, this: I live in a predominantly Catholic country and your quote is not only incorrect presently, but has been so for about fifty years!"The only case I see this being true is that both husband and wife promise to raise the children Catholic. Most churches will not marry people unless both are baptised in the Catholic Church"The only case you see this being true.. where Sexxibck??? The Catholic Church in Ireland got rid of that petition a long time ago. (And I thought we were supposed to be backward..)

"why are American & Canadian Catholics marrying non-catholics, dating non-catholics"

Because they're living in the present times, as most other Catholics are also. As I've said, according to the Vatican, there is no reason why Catholics shouldn't now date and marry outside their religion and there hasn't been for a long long time. If certain regions want to stay stuck in the dark ages that is no reflection on Catholicism as a whole.

"(why are they)..having sex before marriage, using protection?"

Because, like myself; they're _non-practicing _ Catholics!

"I find my statement about Catholics only marrying Catholics being heavily culturall influenced holds up"

Explain to me how the above statement is any truer than the same statement with Protestant/Islamic/Hindu substituted for Catholic please?

Also Hyperion, you have some ideas about Europe that are really (I'm sorry, cause you seem like a likable bloke, but it has to be said) quite ignorant."Look at Europe. The whole continent is soooo segmented. Not even just religion but by nation"Well I would bloody well expect it to be segmented! It is made up of many many different countries, not just adjoined states, but entirely different countries, that exist in different geographical locations, many of them islands, and all possessing their own individual cultures, traditions, religious and ideological beliefs. I am thankful, in case you are interested, to be part of such a vibrant multicultural community as the European Union.Steve has displayed some knowledge of how this continent functions in terms of religious expression; really Hyperion, you shouldn’t make comments about a place you clearly have no knowledge of at all.

Howdy peeps, time to blow a couple of things out of the water here... Well, none of you yet know this, (obviously, you're about to find out lol) but, I'm from England, and, I went out with a German for 3 and a half years, I know a fair few people who're married to germans, and are english, one of my friends even has French ancestory (puh puh! lol) so, as for Europe not marrying between countries... that's bs... oh, and, for the record... the German I went out with was Half Italian... mom German, dad Italian, so, that blows the one about strictness out of the window too... now, as I know this is mainly about religion, let me just put this together for you:

Dad = Catholic (very! as in: doesn't even swear... ever!)
Mom = Protostant (very!)
Me = Church of England - A made up Church, by one of our former kings, so he could divorce his wife (Henry VIII in case anyone missed my subtlety there :wink: lol) which is a protostant religion too, but, evidently, not the same as my mom's!!

I went to a C of E school, learnt all about the bible etc etc, learnt my dad's way, learnt my mom's way, and have found my own way...

Anyway, just wanted to point out that as Europeans (well, I'm English... not even European! pah!) we're not segmented, just because we have our own nationatlities, doesn't make us all seperate, (though, very proud of our individual nationalities) we're all people after all!! Religion doesn't come into it for us, anymore than it does for anyone in the world that has the freedom to decide for themselves who they want to love

Oh, and, scarred for life as I am for knowing this, but, my dad might be a good catholic for all intents and purposes, but, he too at least sees sense in that he uses protection! (I didn't get a Birth Certificate, my parents got an apology letter from Durex) ... The bible was written in a time where protection was pretty much impossible, by the hands of man, trying to prevent pregnacy outside of marriage, where there is no way to support the baby, as women didn't work then, it's all about interpretation... which is why I'm none practicing when it comes to religion... I believe in God, but, I don't see why I should devote my time to something that is as corrupt as Al Capone, and, that has been proven time and again! And that doesn't just go for catholosism... (crusades) it goes for any of them, mine (made up church, to suite the purposes of a king) even looking at muslims now... how corrupted have the words of "the lord" (whatever you want to call him/her/it) been to suit purposes of "holy war" on the western countries?

Anyway, meandering off topic again there, so, back to it... If you took into consideration how things would be written differently in the bible if it were written today, then, I think you will find your own answers to whether catholics would use protection or be with someone other than their religion... if you think about it, the bible, realistically, is the basis for all of our laws, and, over time, laws change and evolve to suite the times

Hence, if I were to interpret it, it would be different to everyone elses interpretation, as we all have different points of view

Oh, and, for the record... My evil ex from Deutschland was a staunch catholic (her dad was a "preacher" or whatever they call them in Germany) and, well, how can I put this without seeming impolite... well... lets just put it like this, she was hardly innocent :wink: lol, and, by damn, we used protection... last thing I needed was a childsized german invasion force on my hands!!! lol, and, last I heard of her (we don't speak... my other threads explain that) she was dating a Muslim!!! lol ... oh what a good little catholic she isn't :wink: lol

And, one final note... current lady = methodist, I think, I'll have to check with her again, cause, I'm not the only one not much up on religion :wink: lol but anyway, so many differnt churches and what not, who knows what's right and wrong, we can only make a moral judgement based on our own circumstances, in my humble opinion anyway :smile:

Anyhoo, enough of my gibber jabber for now at least :wink:

Dan

starfish:The only case you see this being true.. where Sexxibck??? The Catholic Church in Ireland got rid of that petition a long time ago. (And I thought we were supposed to be backward..) First off, stop taking this as a personal attack. Second, The Catholic Church Of Ireland is PART of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, they may have their own rules but the Vatican has their own. Third, according to Canon Law, from the Vatican itself: Can. 1086 §1. A marriage between two persons, one of whom has been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is not baptized, is invalid. Look up "Disparity of Cult". A marriage bewteen a Catholic and non-baptised non-Catholic is invalid in some countries. A marriage bewteen a Catholic and a baptised non-Catholic is allowed, only in certain circumstances. That is tha case I saw as being true. They must promise to raise the children Catholic, because it is a mixed marriage.

"First off, stop taking this as a personal attack"Well, first off, I take this neither personally, nor as an attack. As I have previously stated, I am a non practicing Catholic, so even if the ancient laws you refer to were still enforced here I wouldn’t be adhering to them anyway."..they may have their own rules but the Vatican has their own"That's nonsense, pure and simple. I'm sorry and I'm not trying to be rude here, but there's just no other way to put it. The Catholic Church in Ireland takes its instruction directly from the Vatican. If you had an Irish Catholic background you would know that.I do not argue that some countries dont still hold fast to centuries old laws of instruction, as I have previously stated, I can only speak for what is happening here and why. In the cases where the Catholic Church in other countries still adhere to laws laid down by the Vatican many centuries ago I can only assume it is out of an spirit of unwillingness to move with the times, not because the centre of Catholic instruction itself has not moved on. That attitude is hardly new, I'm sure it can be seen in all religions and all walks of life if it comes to that; resistance to change will always exist, that doesn’t mean that the change hasn’t happened! You seem to actually want, for some reason, to believe that that is still the Vatican’s official line; I cant imagine why that would be.

"..they may have their own rules but the Vatican has their own"I assume they could only have rules in areas that the Vatican has none. Isn't the Vatican the ultimate authority over all Roman Catholic churches everywhere?

It is of course and that is what Sexxibac just doesn’t seem to want to accept. As to why some American dioceses are still behind the times in this matter I can only put down to, as I said earlier, a resistance to change. As to why this is acceptable to the Vatican (as it must be) perhaps they recognise that some countries are more resistant to change than others? Or perhaps they actually prefer the business of the Church to be conducted in that manner, but recognise that some countries have moved beyond a point where they are willing to tolerate it? I'm not a member of the hierarchy of the Church, so I don’t know; all I know is that Irish Catholic religious instruction is taken directly from the Vatican, as you Americans say: period.If a 'mixed' couple went into a Church here now and were told they had to sign a document to state that any children resulting from the marriage had to be raised Catholic in order for the ceremony to go ahead they'd be most likely told where to go with their ceremony. Since our country became the focal point of the massive inward migration I have discussed with you before now, there has been a HUGE upsurge in 'mixed' marriages here, but those outdated laws were done away with long before that.Incidentally, you mentioned earlier in this thread the orthodox Christian views expressed in Eastern Europe, and it brought to mind the only evidence I have ever seen in this country of an individual Christian opposing a wedding ceremony: The Romanian mother (an orthodox Christian) of one of my sons friends cut off her only daughter for marrying an Irish Catholic. When I say 'cut off' I mean she cut her out of her life entirely and hasn’t spoken to her since, such was the severity of her daughters ‘crime’ in this woman’s mind. And it is really baffling to me to have this women sitting in my home while her son plays in the garden with my (Catholic) son, sipping tea and telling me, full of righteous pomposity, how and why she'll never speak to her daughter again! Some years have passed since the wedding, so I dont doubt her sincerity one bit. I don’t find it offensive at all, just truly amazing! It is an excellent example of how closed-minded people can be and is religious fanaticism on a scale that is, contrary to what Hyperion believes, absolutely unusual among Western Europeans; so much so that I have never witnessed such an attitude from anybody else (thankfully!)

starfish: The Catholic Church in Ireland takes its instruction directly from the Vatican.

It is not nonsense. Take for example the Eastern Catholics, they "made up" their own Canon Laws, and I mean "made up" as being, they pick and choose what to follow. The Eastern Catholics are part of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, they fall under it. But do other denominations of Catholics follow their law? No.

starfish: If you had an Irish Catholic background you would know that.

I do have an Irish Catholic background (my mother's parents were born in Ireland) and I have been to many Irish Catholic weddings. My mother's brother is a priest in Ireland. Though, I haven't talked to my uncle in years and I am a non-practicing Catholic, I still know a lot about the faith.

starfish: That attitude is hardly new, I'm sure it can be seen in all religions and all walks of life if it comes to that; resistance to change will always exist, that doesn't mean that the change hasn't happened!

I'm not saying change hasn't happened. Of course it has, a few centuries ago you couldn't marry someone who was a non-Cathlolic, no if ands or buts. Now you can with permission.

starfish: You seem to actually want, for some reason, to believe that that is still the Vatican's official line; I cant imagine why that would be.

I don't want to believe anything, since I am a non-practicing. It doens't change the fact that it holds true. Unlike most other religions Cathlolics have ecclesiastical laws, Canon Law, which I already quoted.

SteveA: I assume they could only have rules in areas that the Vatican has none. Isn't the Vatican the ultimate authority over all Roman Catholic churches everywhere?

Actually, the Decree on the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite from the Second Vatican Council recognizes the right of Eastern Rite Catholics to keep their own distinct liturgical practices. Like I said, different country churches, different beliefs. The Eastern Churches won't recognize some marriages that othe countries churches would.

"My mother's brother is a priest in Ireland. Though, I haven't talked to my uncle in years"Well then, if you want to educate yourself on this issue that's very simply done: call your uncle.

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> The Romanian mother (an orthodox Christian) of one of my sons friends cut off her only daughter for marrying an Irish Catholic. When I say 'cut off' I mean she cut her out of her life entirely and hasn't spoken to her since, such was the severity of her daughters 'crime' in this woman's mind. And it is really baffling to me to have this women sitting in my home while her son plays in the garden with my (Catholic) son, sipping tea and telling me, full of righteous pomposity, how and why she'll never speak to her daughter again! Some years have passed since the wedding, so I dont doubt her sincerity one bit. I don't find it offensive at all, just truly amazing!
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Does that lady really think that that kind of thing is what Jesus had in mind? That is the type of thing he was four-square against. He would have been aghast at the rapidity with which his philosophy was turned into a political instutions and religious fiefdoms.
How could a mother cut off her daughter for marrying a man from another Christian sect? It's insane.

"Does that lady really think that that kind of thing is what Jesus had in mind? That is the type of thing he was four-square against. He would have been aghast at the rapidity with which his philosophy was turned into a political instutions and religious fiefdoms"I've been listening to this for a few years now and I wouldn’t know, and never have known, how to respond to her Steve. It's all the crazier because, as far as she is concerned, she is talking to a fully fledged 'Catholic woman'. A ‘practicing Catholic’ in her mind, and even so she has no qualms about how she puts her case to me.. She is my sons friends mother; he too is an only child and he's a good little boy with not many other friends, so it's better all round if I keep my mouth shut. I just look at her as I would observe any other alien and difficult to fathom species, to be honest.

But to say it with arrogant pride rather than terrible sadness...people are very strange. But if you're concerned about her kid's interests, there's not much you can do.

Terrible sadness, good God, that would be something, ha ha! No, that's not her style at all. She reckons her daughter has done a terrible wrong, committed some unforgivable offence. She has three children and the eldest is the daughter in question; I sometimes wonder if the woman mustn’t be at least a little crazy..As for my sons friend, as I said he's a lovely little boy, and it's bad enough he has a mother as mad as a march hare without anybody else taking it out on him, God love him. He has actually confided in me how much he misses his sister, it is really very very sad. I have tried to broach the subject with her in the past, but to be honest I let it go a good while back, there is just no talking to the woman, mores the pity for her son, for all her kids; and for her too, come to think of it.

Well... I am a practicing Catholic. Not an 'elder,' Im 14, but I personally believe birth control is as evil as abortion. People are likely to tell me an adult has influenced me to this answer, but I believed it before I became Catholic, and I don't know any adults that dislike it as much as I do. If you are going to have sex, it shouldnt be for pleasure. Sex is there to have a child. That is why it exists. You are in essence killing people every time you have protected sex. And you should be married for multiple reasons. 1- Financial. If your BF or GF dumps you with a kid, and you have no way of paying for it what will you do? Ditch the kid into foster care? 2- What will your kid do when people find out his parents arent married. Little kids wont care but he/she wll be a bastard child and will end up taking shit for it in high school. His mother will be called a whore, et cetera. Many other reasons exist too, other than that it is evil.