Steve>> “It doens't say much about the country's current ethnic make-up.”Starfish> This was in response to my discussing the 2002 Irish citizenship referendum. I don’t understand how you contend that the holding of the referendum in any way reflects the country's ethnic make-up.It's good that you don't understand that, because that's not what I'm saying. I wasn't making a value judgement about the make-up about Ireland. I was just saying that the referendum adds no information one way or the other.Finding population data for the U.S. is easy. There's a census every ten years, and reasonably reliable estimate for the intervening years are available. I still haven't found any good current data for Ireland, and so far no one has pointed me toward any.Steve>> “I don't care whether Ireland has many or few minorities”Starfish> Really? So why are you putting this degree of effort into mollifying yourself that it hasn’t?Yes, really. I'm just wondering why someone who holds opinions about certain racial matters, but has spent most of her life in a relatively non-diverse culture, holds those opinions. Certainly Irish children will have more exposure to people from other cultures than their parents have had.I lived in New Hampshire, which was truly lilly-white 25 years ago, and I've lived in Miami, which is truly a racial and cultural melange. I don't resent either place for it. I've also lived in Boston, which is pretty segregated -- that was a little weird.So, does anybody know of a good source of population data? Not just for Ireland, but for all parts of the world. I wonder if the U.N. keeps track of such statistics.
-
Ethnic minorities in Ireland
-
It seems to have gone completely over your head, but you have just proven my point in fine style by interpreting the chocolate/vanilla ice-cream comment in the way I predicted you would; i.e. responding to it re racial connotations. Now, my question to you would be; why is it ‘always about colour’ for you?
-
That was an interesting post Steve. I don’t have very long to respond before I have to get out of here so I may come back to some of it’s points at a later stage.“I was just saying that the referendum adds no information one way or the other”I disagree with you on this point. I think the fact that there was a need for a referendum on this issue clearly points to the large volume of foreign people who were using this particular path into the country, which would suggest that the recipient country is unlikely to be somewhere that could any longer be described as having a racially homogeneous population. There are many paths people can take to acquire residency here, this was only one of them.On the issue of a census, there has been a census taken here every five years for the last fifteen years, presumably in response to the very large population growth we have experienced in that time. The last one was held only two or so months ago, so I’m not surprised there are no current results to be found. On a slight variant to the topic though, I don’t have much confidence in the results of those censuses. It is printed very clearly on the forms that if you do not fill them out and return them you could face a jail sentence, so I would have assumed the government was taking the issue seriously. I was surprised then, to find that the census taker never returned to collect my form, despite three separate phonecalls from me to the number she had left on her card, which was delivered with the census forms. Naturally my calls were made in an effort to avoid a jail sentence! But as I said, she never returned. I wasn’t trying to avoid handing in my forms, but how much easier would it be for someone who was? Someone who was living here as an illegal immigrant, for example?“Certainly Irish children will have more exposure to people from other cultures than their parents have had”That is an absolute fact, and not one I am trying to dispute.“I've also lived in Boston, which is pretty segregated -- that was a little weird”That is a point of interest for me. Why and how is it segregated? Because obviously segregation hasn’t been enforced for several decades, so presumably people there segregate themselves? I’d be interested to hear more about that.
-
CBW:"Oh, and as for chocolate or vanilla--neither. Cookies 'n cream all the way! And why do you have to pick chocolate or vanilla? Why is it always about color with you "starfish:"It seems to have gone completely over your head, but you have just proven my point in fine style by interpreting the chocolate/vanilla ice-cream comment in the way I predicted you would; i.e. responding to it re racial connotations."I think she was being sarcastic. Thus, the smiley.
-
In reply to:It seems to have gone completely over your head, but you have just proven my point in fine style by interpreting the chocolate/vanilla ice-cream comment in the way I predicted you would; i.e. responding to it re racial connotations.This is getting really petty. You seem to reach a threshold of frustration where discussion of the issue becomes subordinated to anger, and the result is personal attack. If you're trying to win debating points rather that exchanging information, that's your wont, but ad hominem attacks won't get you many points.In reply to:Now, my question to you would be; why is it ‘always about colour’ for you?It's not always about color, but you need to have some knowledge of what life as a minority is like to understand. As a member of the large majority in your culture, I don't expect you to have empathy for a black American. Still, you need to understand how the life experiences tends to refract their view of the world, and how the majorities in most every culture are insensitive to the minorities.You still don't see the problem with the "Do you find BLACK WOMEN sexy or attractive?" thread, do you?
-
“I've also lived in Boston, which is pretty segregated -- that was a little weird”> That is a point of interest for me. Why and how is it segregated? Because obviously segregation hasn’t been enforced for several decades, so presumably people there segregate themselves? I’d be interested to hear more about that.I don't think that most Bostonians realize how segregated their city (the whole metropolitan area, in fact) is. I don't remember seeing many (any?) black face at major sporting events there, other than those of the athletes. I suspect a lot of people don't venture far from their neighborhoods.It was rare to see black and white kids hanging out together, although I noticed seeing the occasional mixed group starting in the 90's.There are some exceptions. Cambridge, right next to Boston, has a fairly heterogeneous mix of races, but Cambridge itself is an odd mix of academics, students, and far-left (for the U.S.) politics.Boston has a long history of segregation, and it exploded in the late 60's, when the government was trying to desegregate schools and thought that bussing students was a good solution. The largely-Irish (by roots) neighborhood of South Boston was a scene of great violence when black students were bussed in. The level of hatred and hateful rhetoric is now hard to fathom.Through the 60's, every place in the U.S. was either very segregated, or completely segregated (as in the South). In a white neighborhood, it was a gargantuan scandalous big deal if a black family moved in. They'd likely be harassed (or worse) until they moved, if they tried. There was "blockbusting", where a white person would purchase or rent a property on behalf of a black person in an all-white neighborhood. White people didn't want to live near black people, and they didn't want their property values to go down if they did (which became a self-fulfilling prophecy). If blacks did get a toehold in a neighborhood, the whites would move out.That all seems a bit hard to believe now, but that's how it was just a generation ago. There's still an undercurrent of racial hostility, to varying degrees, and it bubbles to the surface during times of societal stress.
-
“If you're trying to win debating points…”That actually doesn’t interest me. "exchanging information" believe it or not, would truly be of a lot more worth to me than this petty arguing that has been going on. It might surprise some people (especially, I'm thinking, yourself and CBW) to know that the last incarnation of the Irish 'troubles', as you would probably understand them, (I cant stand that term) as began 1968, were in response to northern Irish Catholics marching for their civil rights. Those civil rights marches derived direct inspiration from what had occurred in the southern states of North America a short few years before.The movement reached a crucial and tragic turning point in 1972, when ‘british’ paratroopers fired on a Nationalist civil rights march, killing thirteen people. Fourteen other people were wounded, one of whom later died.The point that I am making here is; there are more common points connecting Black American and Nationalist Irish history than either of you may realise.“..you need to have some knowledge of what life as a minority is like to understand”And you clearly think you do? Maybe you can explain that to me please? And while you’re at it, please explain to me why you, as a white man, are best placed to describe an intimate understanding of that experience to me? “You still don't see the problem with the "Do you find BLACK WOMEN sexy or attractive?" thread, do you?”No; honestly, I don’t, and I’ll soon tell you why. But firstly, before I get into that, I’ll say this; I don’t know what particular comments I made that you found offensive to minorities, but if you want to copy and paste them to this thread I’ll be happy to respond to them. I know, as a decent woman, that I’ve never made any comment I’m not comfortable standing over and explaining to anyone who has an issue with it. Obviously I can’t go back to past threads and find comments that were offensive to you, so you will have to find those, (and CBW; please understand that you are welcome to do the same), so I invite both of you to find them, paste them here, and I promise I will respond accordingly.Now, I’m ready to explain to you why I didn’t find the tone of that thread offensive:One of the closest and oldest friends of both myself personally, and my family, is a black man. His nickname is BaBa and in respect of his privacy, I’ll refer to him only in that way here. I met him in 1992, when I was sixteen years old. I think you can appreciate, at this stage; he has been a close friend of mine for nearly half my lifetime. He was one of my son’s late father’s closest friends. I met him before my son was conceived and he is still part of our life now, more than four years after my sons fathers death. My son loves this man; and a lot of time has passed since we first met. He is more of an uncle now than anything else to my child. He has taken great pains to remain a part of my sons life since his friends death and I will never - never forget that. But, in respect to that tone of that thread, (Do you find BLACK WOMEN sexy or attractive?") I need to say this:If a white woman said to me; “I wouldn’t go out with BaBa because I don’t find black men sexually attractive”, well obviously that wouldn’t be something I could confuse with a compliment, but nor could I accuse her of taking a stance that was, as you said Steve; “dehumanising”. What a person does or does not find sexually attractive is their own business, purely conjecture, absolutely subjective, and is in no way a reflection on the worth of my friend. But if that same woman said to me; “I wouldn’t go out with BaBa because I feel black people are inferior to me”, now THAT would be an entirely different statement; THAT would be the point at which she’d need to get her fucking arse out of my home - if she had any desire to hold onto her hair.Do you understand the difference Steve & CBW?
-
> The point that I am making here is; there are more common points connecting Black American and Nationalist Irish history than either of you may realise.
I don't doubt it.
In reply to:
And you clearly think you do? Maybe you can explain that to me please? And while you're at it, please explain to me why you, as a white man, are best placed to describe an intimate understanding of that experience to me?
I can't exactly empathize with an African American or a Guatemalan immigrant, but I've spent most of my live living among minorities. For much of the time I've lived in Miami (rather than New England), I've been a minority, ethnically and linguistically. I like to talk to people about their experiences. I've tried not to squander my time while here. Unfortunately my Spanish is very poor, but I aim to fix that.
I seriously doubt that your experiences match mine.
As far as the "black women" thread is concerned, it's disrespectful in the sense that "do you find big tits sexy and attractive" threads are. There's some cultural history here that the originator of that thread may not have understood, but it comes across as "Do you think black women are a good fuck?"
> Do you understand the difference Steve & CBW?
I don't think we're talking about the same subject.
-
"but it comes across as "Do you think black women are a good fuck?"Comes across to who Steve? That is an interpretation of the question that never crossed my mind. In fact, I would have taken it that because the question was posed in a two-part manner (do you find black women sexy OR attractive) the 'sexy' element would have been directed at heterosexual males or homosexual females who would find women sexy, and the 'attractive' element directed at heterosexual women or homosexual men who would not, but obviously can still discern the presence of physical beauty, even if they are not sexually attracted to it. But I think our difference of interpretation proves it is all a matter of perception, and I doubt the op intended anyone to interpret the question in the manner you describe.
-
That is an interpretation of the question that never crossed my mind.Obviously. I never said you were a racist. A bit insensitive, perhaps.> Comes across to who Steve?Maybe you should check with a black woman with feminist sensibilities. (Where can we find such a person?)> at heterosexual males or homosexual females who would find women sexyWho would find black women sexy, or who would find black women atractive. If you don't see that the central theme of the thread was black women, rather than just women, I don't know what to tell you.
-
"Maybe you should check with a black woman with feminist sensibilities. (Where can we find such a person?)"Hmmm, where indeed??! I've already invited CBW to discuss anything I have said with her; that still stands. One other point I'd like to make in relation to that thread; what I am saying here is that I do not see anything wrong with the question posed at the beginning of that thread. I'm certainly not defending individual responses to it, other than my own. That was a very long thread and I didnt read any part of it other than the very first post and some portion of what was posted after I first happened across this site, some time during August of this year. I do remember CBW saying on that thread that there were posts contained within it that she had found depressing, so it's very possible that I missed some nasty stuff that was posted before I came here. If that is the case though, I would say that the problem isnt with the question posed at the beginning of the thread, but with those individual responses."Who would find black women sexy, or who would find black women atractive. If you don't see that the central theme of the thread was black women, rather than just women, I don't know what to tell you"Come on Steve, is it likely I would miss that since it was contained in the subject line of the thread?! The point I am making here is that that element of the question, 'sexy', was posed at heterosexual men or homosexual women, because if they didnt find women sexy generally it'd hardly matter what colour they were!
-
Well, OK then.