Fellow agnostics

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Those people aren't true "what if-ers". A true wadiffer would also be open to the possibility that that speculation/faith isn't "true". As you said, people get confused.That spaghetti monster letter was great. Has it got much coverage over in the US?

Not a lot, but the school board battle that inspired it got a lot of coverage. The pro-"intelligent design" folks were handed a gigantic defeat. In a rational world, it would be a death blow to those attempting to teach "intelligent design" as science. Unfortunately, such legal cases are likely to keep arising in the American South and Midwest, mainly in the rural areas. Pennsylvania is technically outside of the Midwest, but it's close enough.Personally I think the study of nature, the natural world, is far more interesting than the masturbatory exercise of speculating on the existence of God(s). The ideas of quantum physics alone blow away everything that the bible has to say about the natural world. Too bad so few people know anything about it.It's funny the way New Age folks pick and chose things from relativistic and quantum physics to bolster their beliefs. (They've really run with the idea of particle entanglement, and the idea of the equivalence of energy and matter.)

HEY! You watch what you say Steve! The Flying Spagetti Monster will punish your heathen ass! You shall forever roast in the lake of tomato sauce! "None to be worshipped but the Flying Spagetti Monster; the Vomitting Donkey is his prophet."

Sorry about that, I couldn't pass it up. As far as religion goes, there is a 50-50 chance in the long-run. Science dosn't have an explanation yet for 1/1,000,000,000th of what's out there (Considering useful science has only really accepted in the last 150 years, when you think about it), nor have we seen any 'concrete' proof from 'a' god/godess.
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Here's the end of it;** Do what makes you feel good, but don't be an asshole about it. You don't think god exists? Great, just don't go around fist-fucking others' beliefs in a devine being. Visa-versa, if you believe in god, don't go around telling everyone else they will burn in hell, threaten, or otherwise harass people. This is the secret to peace: DON'T BE AN ASSHOLE

It's a shame. We should teach our kids what to rationally make of the world around them before confusing them with story they may/may not be true.Science isn't really my game, but I find it quite interesting the kind of things you can extrapolate out of nature. I'm thinking about the golden ratio and geometric patterns nature produces.By the way, have you seen 'What the bleep do we know?'? If so what did you make of it.

Nope, I haven't seen it...will eventually rent the DVD. The New-Age-y folks I know love it.

I watched about half of it before I broke my external hard drive. It was... interesting. I could see why those New Age people would like it. I remember one of the people in it mentioning how quantum physics could explain how Jesus walked on water. So there's something for the christians too.

What's hard for people to understand is that quantum effects make sense on the subatomic scale, but not on the macroscopic scale.

According to quantum physics, there is a finite probability that you will spontaneously appear on the other side of the wall of the room you're sitting in, but it's likely to happen only once in several lifetimes of the universe. But if it did happen, it sure would look like magic.

I'm not as sanguine as you and Bob on the effect of religious belief. Magical thinking is in conflict with the needs of society.People who engage in magical thinking are more subject to manipulation and crazy conspiracy theories. Look at the tribes who slaughter neighboring tribes because they think that the neighboring tribe is using black magic against them. Look at the Nazis, who convinced a sizable fraction of their country (and neighboring country)'s populations that Jews were at the root of their problems. Look at all the people who mindlessly accepted what George Bush, the nice born-again Christian guy, had to say about the world.Federally-funded scientific research (outside of medical research) has suffered badly under the Bush administration. The U.S. is losing its edge in basic research.Edit: Sorry, this was meant to be in reply to Hawker.

This doesn't detract from your point, but..."Look at the Nazis, who convinced a sizable fraction of their country (and neighboring country)'s populations that Jews were at the root of their problems."I'd say the Nazis used "science" (albeit in a very dodgy form) to lead people to that belief.I think both rationality and "magical thinking" have the power to lead people astray (or lead a good life, whatever the case may be). In the pre-enlightened it would be interesting to imagine what would have happened without the existence of religion. I'd venture to say (based on nothing in particular) that there would be more death & destruction than a world with it.Can't say the same would happen these days.

(As I said in the edit, that post was meant to be in response to Hawker.)The "science" that the Nazis used was not science at all; no more than "creation science" is science. If you take a system of dogmatic beliefs and spiff it up with some scientific terminology, it's still just dogma. If you put lipstick on a pig, you still have a pig.There is mounting evidence that the tendency toward religious belief is hard-wired into the brain, and either it had a beneficial effect on survival eons ago (perhaps helping people function in small bands, being obedient to a leader), or it may be a side effect, an artifact, of something else.The feeling of the "religious high" can be artificially-induced, and the areas of the brain that are busy when it happens (whether or not artificially-induced) can be shown by functional MRI examination of the brain.

Originally Posted By: bobaliciousAs long as the proof isn't "I feel God inside me". What if that's the only proof available because our scientific understanding of the universe is far too limited in order to scientifically prove God's existance?

Then it's not proof it's faith and isn't that what Jesus said it was all about anyway.

Originally Posted By: OldFolksThen it's not proof it's faith and isn't that what Jesus said it was all about anyway. Exactly

I disagree. Proof is proof and faith is faith. As a Christian, one still needs a great deal of faith regardless of whether or not they have personal proof of God's existance.

Why does a Christan need proof? I thought part of showing your love of Christ was loving through faith not loving through or because of an absolute.I thought faith was the demonstration of love.

I never said a Christian needs proof...but that doesn't necessarily stop personal proof from comming their way.For some, personal proof is often referred to as a "testimoney".

I thought "testimony" fell under the category of belief based on some experience. I would say that's belief not proof. I have nothing against belief but it's just that belief. Why try to elevate by calling it proof? I would think calling it proof marginalizes the experience of faith.

It would marganalize it if you had proof of everything, yes...which is why I'm equally certain that not everything will ever be proved.It's a personal proof...that which you refer to as belief. I can tell you about it, but I can't show it to you. Does that make it any less real to me? (That's why I refer to it as a "personal proof".)

That's still belief. Faith is a belief for which you don't need any proof.

Why elevate it to "proof" personal or otherwise? Isn't doubt inherently one of the roots of faith. Without doubt all that is left is absolutism. That is to say if something is known then one can have no faith about it. Wasn't Christs instruction to have "faith" ...to believe beyond any need of proof.

For some people, there is a sense of insecurity over having "merely" faith, and not "proof". Apparently, people's incorrect idea on science, for instance, has a lot of gravitas. They need to realize that science accrues evidence, and systematizes our understanding of natural phenomena, but it doesn't prove anything.According to religious belief, truth is revealed; it's considered true by the faithful, and no further inquiry is necessary. Science, however, is ever-changing. Over time, as experiments are conducted and the base of knowledge grows, science tends toward the correct answers to questions about natural phenomena. (It nothing to say about the supernatural.)Religion gets into trouble when it postulates on natural phenomena. It is unyielding, so as soon as it is shown to be wrong in the smallest way, it collapses like a house of cards.What thor doesn't understand is that the existence of God can never be proven, unless perhaps God chooses to reveal Himself. Speculations on His existence are outside of the realm of logic, and they are certainly outside of the realm of science. Belief in God will remain a matter of faith.