So sore!

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I bet most pro body builders out there are a hell of a lot more flexible than you.I would be happy to take you up on that bet. I'll bet $$$ that you're wrong. I am more flexible than the average person, much less the average body builder. I don't see how it's physically possible to have huge muscles and not lose flexibility.I see how a lot of the bodybuilder types work out in my gym (there are a lot of them). Some of them are there every day, and without being weird about it, I try to see what they do. A lot of them obsess over certain aspects of their body, and spend a lot of time on machines with fixed ranges of motion. I think they would be better served spending more time on the cable machines and using dumbells.But the main point I was making was at the end of my post: if your objective is raw strength, then I don't see why you wouldn't do what the pro athletes do. Lance Armstrong may not work out on the bike every day, but he rides most days. He's focused on the muscles that allow him to pedal, and the muscles tbat maintain his posture.Lance is trying to develop the relevant muscles as much as possible for his sport, and he doesn't take a week of between training rides. Do you think he doesn't know what he's doing, or is it that he's not concerned with the cut of his glutes and leg muscles?

Argh! Stop missing my point. I'm talking about weight lifting; lifting big, heavy weights with the aim of gaining strength and or muscle mass. Why would Lance Armstrong be doing this? And if he were doing this, why would he do it more than once a week!?I'm not denying that Lance Armstrong doesn't ride more than once a week, I'd say it's fair to say he rides for hours on end everyday, but cardio vascular excersie does not require same amount of recovery that intense resistance training requires. It's slow twitch vs. fast twitch training, the muscles are using a completely different source of energy.I wasn't talking about your average Joe body builder, I was talking about the big pros. You won't often catch them on machines, and they stretch throughly before and after every workout. Sure, they can't compete with a gymist for flexibility, but don't ever think for one moment that big muscles make you "muscle bound" and inflexible. I've seen pictures of huge guys doing the splits with ease.

I was talking about the big pros. You won't often catch them on machinesThat is probably true.Aside from conditioning the cardiovascular system, a runner or bicycle racer is conditioning the principal (and other) muscles in his glute, hamstring, quadricep, and calf muscle groups, among others. They're not doing anything magical, regardless of the twitch speed of each muscle. They're also conditioning their back and other muscles, for stability.They are conditioning for strength.What I keep asking, but you keep not answering, is, if you want strong legs, why don't you just do what Lance Armstrong does?An average body builider competing on a bicycle against someone who works out like Armstrong would be a complete joke.If you tell me that your advice is aimed at looking as good as possible rather than maximizing strength, then I understand where you're coming from. Otherwise, all this bodybuilder stuff sounds like a lot of superstition.By the way, a lot of people in the gym I go to have more than a passing familiarity with anabolic steroids. I can't speak for Armstrong, although he denies it.

Are you saying Lance's legs are stronger than Helm's? Hell no. You're talking about endurance, not strength.

I doubt that Lance could leg-press as much weight as Wally...at least for one or two cycles. If that's your goal, that's fine, although I'm not sure what the practical application is, unless you're getting paid to do leg presses. But if that's what appeals to you and that's what you want to do, I'll bow to your bodybuilding knowledge. I suppose it's as valid a goal as a non-competing person's wish to sprint as fast as possible.

The question is whether the original poster wants to lift weights, etc. as an end unto itself, or for other reasons. I don't think most people in the gym want to become amateur weight lifters. Whether the OP does is another question.

I'd say most people in the gym are trying to become amataur bodybuilders, not for competition, but for the simple fact that they look good naked. Back to the original point though, if you're lifting weights, whether for a specific sports, or simply to look good, you should not train the same muscle group with weights more than once a week. Sure you can run 7 days a week, but you shouldn't squat twice a week.

Lance Armstrong is a very skilled sprinter, even though his main objective is endurance. Likewise for many successful Tour de France competitors. He needs to train for strength as well as endurance.Athletes who are sprinters, as well a tennis players, some football positions, baseball power hitters, boxers, and others train for strength. I mean, a boxer's hopping around in the ring is not something he needs to do lots of training for. His training is aimed at delivering the most power when he punches.My point in all of this is that a lot of those athletes need to do the same kind of training that a weight lifter (as opposed to a bodybuilder) does. I would wager that the way the top competitors in the Tour de France train is very close to optimal for the muscles that they are training, in terms of being able to produce a balance of strength and endurance.My question is why a weightlifter would do things differently, taking into account the fast/slow twitch muscles and so on. I'm wondering how much mythology there is surrounding what people do in the gym, and how much what they do depends on also taking anabolic steroids.Bodybuilding is a different issue, where the goal is to look a certain way, rather than being as strong as possible.Training methods evolve. People used to thing that ballistic stretching was a good idea, when in fact it was far worse than not stretching at all. (In fact, studies have shown that stretching doesn't do much one way or the other (haven't we had that discussion?), but warming up is a good idea.) Even now, since so many people don't know how to stretch properly, they're better off not doing so.

Hmm... ussually these types of debates are easier just to call each other up and talk it out... much faster to!

This has gotten ridiculous. I was sore from weight lifting, I'm trying to build mass. I'm not a bike ride or a an athlete, we can end the argument there.