The Vatican: Avatar

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I'm aware of this.Thor he never stated that we should worship nature nor did the movie impose that message. Once again you make assumptions based on no knowledge.

one of the things that has always interested me about many of the natural religions is the concept that we owe our lives to "mother" earth and "father" sun (to dramatically oversimplify and paraphrase, of course)In a sense, that almost makes more sense than theistic religions where the deity and source of life is less tangible. I don'r mean to debate validity but, like I said, it's an interesting idea.

_I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite._

~ Uncle George

Geroge Carlin on Religion

Originally Posted By: Technical
Thor he never stated that we should worship nature nor did the movie impose that message. Once again you make assumptions based on no knowledge.
And I agree with these. I never once got the feeling through the movie that we should worship nature, but instead we should respect nature. I don't wanna give examples in the movie because I know there are a few people who haven't seen it yet and I don't wish to spoil anything for them. But for those who seen the movie I'd like to think its pretty evident (but I guess not).
If there was any mention of worship it was to their god Eywa.

Quote:If there was any mention of worship it was to their god Eywa maybe that's also a funny thing about perceptions. You, as a Christian (monotheist) saw Eywa as a separate deity. Possibly that is the perception that some churches would share and object to, I'm not sure.My feeling from the story was that Eywa WAS nature. Eywa was the trees, the animals, the people and even the planet itself. I didn't perceive Eywa as a stand-alone entity.

Originally Posted By: TechnicalHow are his beliefs that we need to take better care of the environment silly?That's not what I said. Quote:Also, it's fairly clear that we DO NOT hold dominion over earth,Really? Please explain where you get this if it's so clear. Quote:and that the Vatican's problem with this movie is completely seperate from that. Did you even bother reading the article? The article fears that we will WORSHIP nature, not believe that nature is equal to us.How can you not see the two as connected? The Bible teaches that we are to have dominion over the earth. If the Vatican believes the film encourages man to worship nature, it's pretty clear that's a long way from him having dominion over it. How can you miss that? Quote:Like I already stated worshipping nature would be worshipping God's work in catholic eyes, therefor it's worship of god not nature over God.They are not even remotely the same thing. You don't worship God by worshipping his creation. That's called idolatry. You might want to go back and recheck your Catholic theology on that one. Quote:Before you once again state that the movie is against catholic views,Something I never said. Quote:I go to a catholic school in which no students I know have taken offence to it. Don't generalize the whole catholic religion by saying that the religion takes offence to it.I didn't....oh, never mind. Quote:The whole reason I brought it up was to point out that it doesn't offend catholicism and the Vatican was being silly.So the Vatican doesn't speak for the entirety of Catholicism, but you do. Got it. Quote:Not once does the Vatican bring forth the message of dominion over earth, Thor the literalist brought that up. Thor is not a catholic. News flash: I didn't get that from Thor's post. I got that from scripture, the same scripture that is behind the Vatican's problems with the film. And did you miss the quote in the article you posted where the Vatican spokesman said of the film "Nature is no longer a creation to defend, but a divinity to worship"?

1. "And I'm going to totally piss Cameron off by totally ignoring his silly beliefs and focus on the craft of the film"2) Like previously stated if we held dominion over the earth then we would be able to control the earth, cough cough Haiti?3) Like I already previously stated damien, the Vatican and catholicism in general does not take the bible literally, therefor they DO NOT believe that we hold dominion over the earth, interpret the text as saying that we are RESPONSIBLE for taking care of our earth.4) Thats extremely hypocritical, think about this for a second. Christians say that we must love one each other because we are all a creation of God's love.... Just like nature? How is it any different, to worship nature is to worship God. But this point is irrelevant, because the Vatican suggests the film implies worship of nature when it does not.5)I don't need to address this, what a ridiculous statement.6) Mmkay?7) That statement was opinion and nowhere did I say that I spoke for all of catholicism, however from the reaction I've gotten from catholics, which happens to be quite a few, all of them have disagreed with the Vatican.8) Their statements have nothing to do with the bible, it has to do with them believing that paganism will somehow arise from this movie which is why it is ridiculous. Also like I previously stated, you are coming from a different interpretation then they are. Catholics do not take the Bible literally they take it contextually. I can't stress this enough. If you really want I could find out the text that we used in grade ten when studying the Bible from a catholic viewpoint. The Jesuit high school educates all grade tens about the catholic viewpoint.

Quote:They are not even remotely the same thing. You don't worship God by worshipping his creation. That's called idolatry. You might want to go back and recheck your Catholic theology on that one. oh, that kinda reminded me of something ok Not directly related maybe The bible clearly states that we are godlike. I wonder if, instead of children, god hoped for siblings or partners even. Yet, we are held in a constant state of infancy by our fear of reaching full potential.Maybe it's time to get off out knees and stand side by side with the maker instead of groveling at god's feet as a constant source of disappointment

Originally Posted By: Technical1) "And I'm going to totally piss Cameron off by totally ignoring his silly beliefs and focus on the craft of the film"I referred to his silly beliefs. I wasn't including his beliefs in taking care of the environment in that package. I would hardly call that a silly belief. Please pay closer attention. Quote:2) Like previously stated if we held dominion over the earth then we would be able to control the earth, cough cough Haiti?Having dominion over the earth and controlling the weather (and other natural phenomenon) are not even close to being the same thing. You're just being silly. Quote:3) Like I already previously stated damien, the Vatican and catholicism in general does not take the bible literally, therefor they DO NOT believe that we hold dominion over the earth, interpret the text as saying that we are RESPONSIBLE for taking care of our earth.I think you are projecting your own views onto Catholicism as a whole. I think that's a big problem with a lot of what you've said in this thread. If you ask your Catholic leadership, from your local parish Priest on up to the Pope, you would find that a good 90% of them agree with my explanation of that verse. Like me (and apparently you), they would also say it entails a responsibility for taking care of the earth, but that doesn't preclude dominion, does it? Quote:4) Thats extremely hypocritical, think about this for a second. Christians say that we must love one each other because we are all a creation of God's love.... Just like nature? How is it any different, to worship nature is to worship God. But this point is irrelevant, because the Vatican suggests the film implies worship of nature when it does not.Do you even know what hypocrisy means? First of all, I'm not sure that's the exact reason scripture gives for loving one another. But whatever. And it certainly doesn't teach that we love creation to the level that we love fellow man. You recall the verse that says "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love all of mankind as you love yourself." Nothing there about loving nature. But either way, loving others or loving nature, while they might go a long way in domonstrating our love of God, is not the same thing as loving God - because they are NOT God. You've just made that up and have done nothing to show where you get that line of thinking.Maybe it is irrelevant. But keep in mind that I didn't come into this discussion defending the Vatican's views on or interpretation of the film. I've not even seen the film. I came in defending their right to have a criticism of the film. Everything else has stemmed from that. Quote:5)I don't need to address this, what a ridiculous statement.It's far from a ridiculous statement. My logic is impeccable. Your refusal to (or fear of?) addressing my point doesn't make it anything less. Quote:6) Mmkay?Great, we agree. Quote:7) That statement was opinion and nowhere did I say that I spoke for all of catholicism, however from the reaction I've gotten from catholics, which happens to be quite a few, all of them have disagreed with the Vatican.Okay, that's fair...sort of. But I would first of all invite you to consider that the Catholics you most typically encounter on a day to day basis themselves don't really represent a good cross-section of Catholicism as a whole. Secondly, I would challenge you to consider that the fact that the Catholics you talk to disagree with the Vatican doesn't mean the Vatican is "silly" for having the beliefs in question. Quote:8) Their statements have nothing to do with the bible, it has to do with them believing that paganism will somehow arise from this movie which is why it is ridiculous. Also like I previously stated, you are coming from a different interpretation then they are. Catholics do not take the Bible literally they take it contextually. I can't stress this enough. If you really want I could find out the text that we used in grade ten when studying the Bible from a catholic viewpoint. The Jesuit high school educates all grade tens about the catholic viewpoint. It absolutely has everything to do with the Bible. Even if, as you assert, their ultimate fear is a boost in Paganism, that fear comes from their interpretation of the Bible and the commands in the Bible. And, really, whether they interpret the Bible literally or contextually (a claim I'm not totally buying into. Once again, your experience is not the entirety of the Catholic experience and belief system), either way my point stands. Other than telling me what YOU think that passage means, how would a contextual interpretation differ from a literal one for that verse?Finally... are we actually having a discussion, or are we just talking past each other?

Originally Posted By: unsupervised The bible clearly states that we are godlike.Where does the Bible state that we are godlike? It says we are created in the image of God, but that doesn't mean "godlike" in the sense you seem to be using the word. Quote:I wonder if, instead of children, god hoped for siblings or partners even.Well...in addition to his children, he does call us his friends. And he also calls us (the Church) his bride. Quote:Yet, we are held in a constant state of infancy by our fear of reaching full potential.Maybe it's time to get off out knees and stand side by side with the maker instead of groveling at god's feet as a constant source of disappointment Interesting...

Originally Posted By: unsupervised  Quote:If there was any mention of worship it was to their god Eywa maybe that's also a funny thing about perceptions. You, as a Christian (monotheist) saw Eywa as a separate deity. Possibly that is the perception that some churches would share and object to, I'm not sure.My feeling from the story was that Eywa WAS nature. Eywa was the trees, the animals, the people and even the planet itself. I didn't perceive Eywa as a stand-alone entity. Perhaps I seen something that wasn't there, but who knows. I personally seen Eywa as a seperate entity, because they referenced her seperately from nature. My perception was that Eywa worked through nature to protect her children and creatures. Again like you said its all about perception.

I will admit that my sibling analogy was a bit fanciful. It is clearly stated in Luke 17:20 that we are the sons of the Most High and as such, we are gods.Also, in Genesis, when god created man in his own image, there was no caveat; "except small, weak and stupid"but there again, the bible, like all the various scriptures of this little world, is purely allegorical. As soon as it's taken literally, the reader has failed miserably in understanding the wisdom therein.Maybe, instead of siblings, a better analogy would be that god is the head of a huge corporation. He is waiting patiently for his rotten, stupid kids to finally be mature enough to join him as full partners in the family business.

And if ya fuck up he'll have you wacked... but it's okay it's just business nothin' personal. :grin:

you think is't a coincidence that the Vatican is in Italy? badda-bing badda-boom

Hmm, makes sense.Do what I say and you'll live forever in heaven, disobey me and you'll burn for all eternity in hell.Seems like an offer I can't refuse!

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with. For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat. ~ Uncle George

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedMaybe, instead of siblings, a better analogy would be that god is the head of a huge corporation. He is waiting patiently for his rotten, stupid kids to finally be mature enough to join him as full partners in the family business. That's funny! Of course, now He'll probably be taxed to death, which will totally screw up my theology.

maybe a heavy tax bill will motivate god to solve some of the problems that are paid for by tax dollars

oh, BTW, you should go see Avatar in 3D. All else aside, it would be a shame to miss out on that experience

I'm not having a discussion with you because for whatever reason you just regurgitate everything I have already addressed.