In reply to: "why would this so-called god reward us for a life which he may or may not consider good and right?" Answer: LOVE. prove it to me. prove to me that this fictional charecter exists and that he will reward me because he loves me. if you can prove god, i will take back everything i say.
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The religious debate from male genetalia area con
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You cannot PROVE God. You also cannont disprove Him. Christianity is a faith, based on evidence. The same can be said for atheism, though I see much less evidence supporting it, however some people disagree. I've grown up in a family of archeologists, historian type people, and fossil collectors, my mom, dad, grandpa, and step-dad, and I've also studied it even more in depth a bit in classes at school. A lot of things discussed in the bible have led to great archeological discoveries in the biblical area, around Jerusalem and places like that. There is also no evidence in the fossil record to support things like evolution, which, I might add, IS just a theory, and cannot be "proven" as we think of the word, as you cannot prove that something happened in the past without having observed it, or having witnesses. Back to what I was saying, it only takes a few hundred years and the right conditions for a fossil to form, there has even been a discovery of a cowboy leg fossilized in his boot, which is rare for it to be so soon but possible if the conditions are right. Almost all of the 'ape-men' have actually been proven that they are either apes or men, not a link to both kinds. As for dinosaurs, which many people seem to have a problem with, even their fossil records can be explained biblically. In the early old testament, people lived much longer than they do now, as it says in the geneological records of the families. There is no reason not to believe that the same wasn't true with animals. Humans stop growing once they've completed puberty (for the most part) and stay basically the same size for the rest of their lives. Reptiles, however, continue growing throughout their entire lives. If animals did in fact live longer as well, then they would grow to great sizes since they would be growing for up to several hundred years. There are mentions of dinosaur-like beasts in the Book of Job, the oldest OT book written. In chapters 40 and 41 mainly, two beasts are specifically mentioned, one the behemoth, and one the leviathin. The behemoth is described as equivelant to a brachiosaur, or 'longnecked' dinosaur, and the leviathan is comparable to a water dinosaur. (This also implies that man and dinosaur walked together, there is a river in Texas, I forget what its called, I'm sure you could find it in a google search, but there are dino and man tracks side by side in the water bed. I can't say for certain that it isn't a fraud, its still being studied, but its an interesting concept!) They died off shortly after the flood (the ever-popular theory of 'world-wide catastrophe') because they could not survive as well in the newly-created environment. Many of them, however, probably do still exist, however since they don't live near as long, they don't grow anywhere near their past size. Many snakes and other reptiles in good environments, like the rainforest, live fairly long lives, and grow to enormous sizes. There are also ways to biblically explain different genes of people, and different 'races' (though we are all in reality the same race, the human race) As for the Christian God, there is no way to literally 'prove' that Jesus was God, but the bible is not the only book that talks about Him, whether it be His claims or his actions, there are plenty of other resources from around those times to double check information on. One main source would be the Jewish historian Josephus. Unless you accept this evidence as pointing to a creator, then there isn't much I can do to convince you of the qualities of a specific god, since you have your own preconceptions of what 'truth' is. I could go on and on, as you may have guessed, but I won't unless someone cares enough to ask.
Just for the record, I wasn't brainwashed to be a christian growing up as some people may seem to think, I was brainwashed to be an atheist growing up. However, in light of the evidence, I became a christian 2 1/2 years ago and have never once regretted doing it, although I do often regret my actions while I practiced the ways of the world before these good times.
Recommended books on the topic:
The case for Christ
The case for Faith
The case for a Creator
all of which by Lee Strobel, a Yale Law School graduate, and award winning legal editor of the Chicago Tribune. Upset when his wife became a christian, this atheist set out to find the real story on a man named Jesus, and certainly did find the truth.
Also "One Blood" by ken ham, does a terrific job explaining the different races and genetic makeup of all humans, and animals even
Any questions, just reply in this forum, e-mail me, or send me a message!! -
**No** Religion is proven, It's all based on faith.
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In reply to: prove it to me. prove to me that this fictional charecter exists and that he will reward me because he loves me. if you can prove god, i will take back everything i say. Like i said, you've already missed the whole point. God's not about trying to prove himself to anybody. He's there to love and be loved. Either way, he's still gonna love you. Whether you accept His love and return is your free will.
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If I love a girl, and I go up to her and specifically say "I love you" and she turns around, runs away, and I never see her again, then I don't really have an opportunity to show her my love. Its up to her if she accepts what I say and accepts the love that I offer her.
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???? how is that relevant?
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haha, good point...God can't show you his love if you refuse to accept it, and the only way to really understand it is to experience it for yourself. No one can ever fully explain the qualities of love, especially God's love. As they always say, "Don't knock it 'til you've tried it!"
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exactly.
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I personally don't belive in god and do not currently go to any kindof church or anything. I do think it is really interesting that a person who grew up in a science based home full of archiologists believes in christianity more. That gives you some perspective.
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In reply to:
Like i said, you've already missed the whole point. God's not about trying to prove himself to anybody. He's there to love and be loved. Either way, he's still gonna love you. Whether you accept His love and return is your free will.
no mate, you have missed the point. why waste your time worshipping, or loving an intangable figure that will neither give you any happiness or reward? now i am not saying 'don't ever do anything unless you are getting something out of it', but if it's intangible, it ain't worth a breath. i would much rather live happily today, here and now, and live life to best of my ability to know that on my death bed, i accomplished something, even if it is only turning a few people away from your 'god'. that will give me piece of mind knowing that i helped one person live life to their fullest, not waste it entirely on a false sense of hope.
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not to mention that human beings 'always want more', it's in our nature. you are making a bit above min wage? there isn't one person in the world that would say i am totally satisfied w that. or you are already rich and famous? tell me they don't strive for something else. you are young? you always want more toys, etc. now, do you think that perhaps that thinking could have maybe led to people writing things like the bible, giving humans MORE hope for the future because they, as a whole cannot grasp the idea that you are born, you live, then you die with nothing else out there. well, hey, lets make something up, er...let's call him, hey i know! GOD!. oh, and if you aren't a good person, or dont' follow these certain guidelines you will spanked! , oh and lets call the punishment hell. yeah, that works.wait a sec here guys, anything else sound like that? perhaps santa? think about it for a second. santa is created to give children something to look forward to at the end of each year. if they are good, they get presents, if they are bad, they get coal. i see some basic similarities there, course dropped down to a childs level, however, it's still on the same par.
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In reply to:
but if it's intangible, it ain't worth a breath
Oh wow...you're so right!! Love, freedom, free will, thought, happiness, why do we need these? they're all worthless to us if we can't spend 'em or throw 'em at somebody, right?
uhh, no...
In reply to:
not to mention that human beings 'always want more', it's in our nature
Haha, no doubt about that, Last. Humans are always searching for something, something greater than themselves, something fulfilling. God did put it in our nature to seek Him, and every human deep down knows that He is calling.
In reply to:
or you are already rich and famous? tell me they don't strive for something else.
I'm not rich, and I'm not famous, and I no longer seek anything but to please God. He has provided for me while I've been at college, and already blessed me with almost more than I could bear to have. If I become rich, so be it, I'll use it for Him.
If I become famous, well then, I'll use it for Him. Faith in God is the true happiness and I myself am glad I have found it.
In reply to:
perhaps that thinking could have maybe led to people writing things like the bible, giving humans MORE hope for the future because they, as a whole cannot grasp the idea that you are born, you live, then you die with nothing else out there. well, hey, lets make something up, er...let's call him, hey i know! GOD!.
Interesting you mention the Bible, Last. Sounds like you believe a lot the same ideas that my mom does. Interestingly enough, I have some information here about the Bible for you. Consider these facts:
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Divine Unity
-It is written by forty different men, ranging from shepherds to kings
-It was written in three different languages, including greek, hebrew, and aramaic
-It was written over a period of more than fifteen hundred years
-It was written to cover the history of man for more than five thousand years.
**Yet it tells one continuous story with no contradictions... -
Consider the Bible's fulfilled prophecy
-The death of Jesus foretold, seven hundred years before it happened
-The persecution of the Jews foretold five hundred years before it happened
-The destruction of great cities foretold: Babylon, Tyre, and Sidon
**Doesn't necessarily mean its inspired....but by golly its getting there... -
Consider the Bible's statements proved by archeology
-The walls of Jericho DID fall as the bible stated, they've been uncovered.
-King Sargon (referenced in Is. 20:1) DID live and reign, his name appears offten in the history uncovered by archeology
-King Solomon WAS the world's richest man. The pick and shovel have found the ruins of his former glory.
-There was a den of lions in Daniel's way. Archeology has found such a den in the very city in which Daniel claimed to be held captive, as he also referenced to a lion's den.
**These are PROVEN historical facts, you could even research them yourself if you wish. -
Consider the Bible's indestructibility
-Antiochus Ephiphanes, a Syrian King, tried with all his great authority to destroy the Old Testament two centuries before Jesus was born, yet he failed.
-The Roman Emperors waged ten distinct persecutions against the Christians and their Scriptures and ALL utterly failed to destroy God's Word.
-The Roman Catholic Church, in its darker days, was guilty of burning thousands of bibles and putting to death hundreds of its translators at the stake, and yet the bible lived through it all.
-Infidels and atheists have in all centuries strived with all their intellectual power to discredit and destroy the bible; they have died and been forgotten, while the Bible lives on.
**"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away." Matthew 24:35 -
Consider the Bible's safe deliverance from the inspired writers to us
-We can trace the OT back to the time of Ezra in the fifth century before Christ, where we find it in agreement with the OT text we have today
-The new testament can be traced back to the Apostles' time, and other writings from that time quote from the new testament that we still see today
**The truths of the Bible are unchanged
"The most learned, acute, and diligent student cannot, in the longest life, obtain an entire knowledge of this one volume. The more deeply he works the mine, the richer and more abundant he finds the ore; new light continually beams from this source of heavenly knowldge, to direct the conduct and illustrate the work of God and the ways of men; and he will at last leave the world confessing that the more he studied the Scriptures, the fuller conviction he had of his onwn ignorance and of their inestimable value"
---Sir Walter ScottAs for me, I would never waste my time worshipping, or loving an intangable figure that will neither give me any happiness or reward. I worship God. He's done more for me than I could ever ask, and I'll forever be indebted to Him, but He kinda saw that one comin'...
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In reply to:
and every human deep down knows that He is calling.
you are completely brainwashed by all that is 'him'...i for one, do not have 'him' deep down calling. 'he' is a figment of your christian world.
In reply to:
and I no longer seek anything but to please God.
then your life is valueless. you are attempting to please someone who is not there. perhaps, historically, there are accurate events found in the bible. but that certainly doesn't prove that a god, or the god created all there is. take out the mumbo jumbo, and yes there is history in there. i don't deny that, but come on, god spoke to abraham? bullshit. if any of these claims happened nowadays, people would be locked up for it, why? because we have evolved beyond the point where we blindly believe in words written down. well, some of us have.
In reply to:
He has provided for me while I've been at college, and already blessed me with almost more than I could bear to have. If I become rich, so be it, I'll use it for Him
he hasn't provided anything for you. you did it yourself. god did not allow you to pass a test, or get the loan needed to get into college. seriously, go stand on a busy intersection. infact, get in a wheelchair and slowly roll yourself into that intersection. see how long your god protects you then...the one and only true god is yourself. you only know all there is to know of you. now, put your bible-belt-wearing-red-neck-record-burning-homosexual-bashing-hypocrite-ass out to rest. you will not win this. because in the end, the only truth will be the darkness you find on your death-bed, and believe me, there will be no light at the end of the tunnel wanting to take you to another world.
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In reply to: then your life is valueless. And what, in your life, do you find valuable, last? What do you look forward to besides procreation and death? In reply to: historically, there are accurate events found in the bible. Thanks for at least acknowledging thatIn reply to: if any of these claims happened nowadays, people would be locked up for it, Many biblical things, but not necessarily that exact sort of event, happen nowadays. Your ignorance of it does not make it non-existant. Ask pretty much any missionary, or even people who go to other less cultured countries for work or the military service. There are many countries that have serious problems with demon possession and attacks. I would assume that the reason we don't see that here as much is that many of the people in America have already chosen not to follow God, and Satan would be wasting his resources here doing something thats already been accomplished. And typically, God doesn't use the same methods He did in the Old Testament because we're now under a new covenant, that of Jesus Christ. We all have been offered the Holy Spirit as an Intercessor and Mediator so that we can all be able to speak directly to God and to know His will. To speak to us all directly AND through the Holy Spirit would be overkill, and isn't necessary today. In reply to: he hasn't provided anything for you. you did it yourself. god did not allow you to pass a test, or get the loan needed to get into college. God, I won't say rarely, but not as often as most would hope directly interferes by doing what we would call a 'miracle.' When He created the universe, he set up natural laws to always run, and govern our world so that we could really experience free will. Typically these laws govern things, however there have been instances where God has directly intervened. Creation itself was a miracle. Birth is not a miracle, it is a natural biological process we were created with. Life, however, is a miracle. But, to my point I suppose. I did study to pass tests, and I had to write papers and do work to pass classes. The money however, I did not do myself. As christians, we have a sort of network set up to help one another. We feel leadings of the Holy Spirit to help one another, and to serve others before ourselves. You say God didn't give me the loans, I say no, He didn't, because other people who trust his guidance have given me the money I need. Churches come together to help pay for kids to go to college, and we have everything we need because of people who trust in the Lord. Why, just from one church I got a scholarship of 1,500 dollars, each year until I graduate. Not a direct intervention of God, I agree with you there, but would not have happened without His believers. I thank God every day for the christians who love Him, and those who love me, and I pray for those who haven't experienced the same. In reply to: go stand on a busy intersection. infact, get in a wheelchair and slowly roll yourself into that intersection. see how long your god protects you then "Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 'If you are the Son of God,' he said, 'throw yourself down. For it is written: 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone' [psalm 91:11,12]Jesus answered him, 'It is also written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test' [Deuteronomy 6:16]"---Matthew 4:5-7---Satan had a similar deal for Jesus during his temptation in the desert. Interesting, it's pretty similar... In reply to: you only know all there is to know of you. now, put your bible-belt-wearing-red-neck-record-burning-homosexual-bashing-hypocrite-a** out to rest. I'm amazed at your ability to believe you are holding up your end of the debate without using a single fact, only emotion. On a side note, the only belt I wear is the Belt of Truth, I'm more of a prep than a red-neck, I don't think I've ever actually held a record in my hand, though I think I recall seeing one once at my grandma's house, as I said in a different post, I'm experienced in the ways of the world, so I might tell you that I was once homosexual, though I no longer am, as I always strive to be better, and that I still have a few homosexual friends, some of which have changed and are now christians, and last but not least, the only hypocracy here is your being alive and not thinking God for it. In reply to: you will not win this. But you know, last, you're entirely right. I won't win this debate against you, I can't, unless you appeal to science and fact instead of basing everything you say off of your own wild emotions.
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dog! u guys type alot.
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i am at work, and don't have the time to respond at this point, however, i WILL respond, you can bet on that. as well, i wrote an essay in high school on this topic, i will retype it and post it here.
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I figured that would be pulled out...let me explain myself. Growing up, I'd always felt deprived and unloved. I didn't realize anything was out of the ordinary, I'd just figured that thats how life is and I should accept it. My parents divorced while I was in 8th grade, and while I didn't think I was really impacted by this, while I didn't feel like I really cared what was going on with them or not, I've been told otherwise. My mom told me once that in 8th grade, soon after their divorce my grades dropped severely, and they were worried and had met with professionals and with my teachers and counselors. I don't remember this, but they'd never told me much about it at the time anyway. Regardless, I had fallen into a deep depression, as that runs in my family, and also had been caused by recent events. I started cutting to relieve my pain, and threatened suicide to myself, and confided my difficulties in a few friends. I'd decided to attempt suicide once, but couldn't go through with it. My grades as a freshman were horrible. I had few friends, and of those few hardly any even seemed to care. I again decided to try to commit suicide, again by cutting, however this time, I was stopped by a friend. For confidentiality reasons, not that any of you would know him, we'll call him John. Now John seemed to be someone who cared, and whole-heartedly loved people and cared what what was going on in their lives. After we'd been talking a while, I'd realized that he was a christian. I asked him if that's what made him so different, and he affirmed that presumtion. I started going to church with him in December of 2001. I went to Bible studies, church, sunday school, the works. I'd kept back mostly from the other kids, as my mom didn't really want me at church anyway, she didn't believe that it was good for people to believe lies like that. John and I became closer and closer, discussing everything on our minds as teens and spending more and more time together. We worked at the same place, a pizza place. Our manager was gay, and obviously really liked John, even though he was only 16 and the manager 23. John always got raises, and way more hours than me, and I was just as good at what we did. One day, a guy we worked with was talking about his recent sexual experiences. I'd happened to be staying at John's house that night, and we (being horny little teenagers) decided to try it out with each other. Well, obviously, as almost anything sexual would, it felt good. So, as the ol' saying goes, "If it feels good, do it." We continued with a homosexual type relationship for the next several months, trying many different things, but usually oral sex is what ended up happening, as I really didn't like the way anal felt. After a while of this, I started feeling as though something wasn't right, and things weren't as they should be. I wanted to talk to John about it, and see what he thought. He'd seemed more distanced lately, so I attempted to get him to spend the night at my house again, and told him what I wanted to talk to him about. Any time I called him, he was either not home, or busy and couldn't talk long. I had the sneaking suspicion that he had another life going, something entirely different from the John I knew, something he was hiding from me. It went on for the next couple months (this was spring of 2003) and finally I realized when I would have an opportunity to talk to him: Church Camp. I waited for it to come, and finally, school was out. That June, we went to church camp. I waited for an opportune time, when everybody else was out of our little dorm we stayed in, and called John in to talk. I'd asked him how he felt about what we'd been doing and if he thought it was right or not. He didn't really seem to want to talk about it. He admitted that he was pretty sure he was gay, and said that I was too. Now, knowing what the christian church teaches on this matter, I got a bit alarmed. He then told me that I was not the only partner he had been with, and he had been with two other men, one of them being the manager of our workplace. (I'd quit a few months before that because the tension between me and the manager was high, and now I'd understood why) He said he'd also been introduced to drinking, and had been involved in viewing homosexual pornography for several years. I was worried also that either one of us could have an STD. That night was senior night, and since John and I had just finished our junior year and were going to be seniors, we were allowed to stay out past curfew. John knew that I had been worried about these things, and that I didn't like how he'd changed from the Christian that brought me to church to a homosexual drunk (harsh term, please excuse it, but it gets my point across) He'd fallen hard to his sin, and didn't have a second thought about it. That night, anyway, he went out and called the manager, telling him about his camp experience and that he missed him, and seemed to be rubbing it in my face that he didn't care what I thought. After we got home, I started my research. Our manager had convinced John that he was gay because God made him that way, and that it was all genetic. I bought books about the "gay gene," studied scriptures on homosexuality and sexual immorality, and went to secular sites (like this one) and christian sites to get different views on the matter. Still feeling linked to God, I had cast out my immorality and repented, which wasn't hard after I'd seen all the lies the world believes, and reading the truths of God's word. I tried to convince John of these same truths, but he stuck by the manager, whom I guess for the sake of ease I'll call Pat. After about two weeks of this panic I was in, I realized I was getting worn out, and was over doing it. I confided in another of my best friends, my ministers son, Mark. Mark encouraged me and helped me study, and best of all, prayed for me...AND John. He was good friends of both of us. After about another week, I found a documentary video about homosexuality, and told John that I was going to send it to him so he could watch it. He didn't like this idea, as his parents could see the box come to him in the mail and question it. He'd never done anything very radical like this before, but at that point, he threatened me. It definitely wasn't music to my ears, probably one of the most painful things i've ever heard someone say. He was so worried about his parents finding out that he threatened me with physical harm. Seeing that I had no choice, I sent the video, which I assume he hid, I never heard anything else about it. Anyway, after that we realized that he meant business and it was getting dangerous, and seeing that I was only a christian for one year and wasn't able to handle it, Mark and I told our youth minister and his wife. I don't remember all of the conversation, a lot of these summer weeks my mind has blocked out and I can't remember since it was so traumatic. I do, however, remember that my youth minister said this: Do you want to give him the help he needs, knowing that it won't work for sure and that he may hate you forever? Awkwardly, I said yes. So, we went to John's parents. They immediately went to his work, went in and got him, and took him home. Over a few interactions with the owner of the business, Pat was fired. (realize though, that it was not because he was gay. I wouldn't ever wish anyone fired for being gay, it was because manager and lower employees weren't allowed to have relationships, and they had broken that rule.) After talking to some church leaders and his family, something that I could not do had been done. John had realized what he had been doing, and agreed that it was not what God wanted for him. For a while, he and i weren't allowed to be around each other, just until we both had overcome any temptations to fall back to it, however, we're friends again today. (and may I say, just that) He has a wonderful girlfriend, and they are planning on marriage. They both go to a christian college, and could never be happier. Our whole youth group knows every detail of what went on, even greater to what has been explained in this LONG post, and still accepts us, offered help and encouragement to us, and as i said earlier, even better, prayed for us. They all have seen the changes we have made in our lives, and know that we exist to serve God, not our own evil desires. He and I are in fact still friends, and even talk about our past together every once in a while. We both agree that it was a mistake, lifechanging, but a mistake. He even knows about things I've been posting on this site. that was a long post, even though it still seems incomplete, as there is a lot more to my life than that. One more thing though... In reply to: I can turn homosexual with the will of god! THAT, is NOT a true statement, nor was it implied in anything I said. it was not BECAUSE i was a christian that i WAS gay, but i am no longer BECAUSE of my faith in God for a better life. homosexuality is not something we are born with, it is something we choose, and something a lot of people are tempted with, and in my opinion, not something to be trifled with. The ONLY way you can turn to homosexuality, is AGAINST the will of God. However, as I said, we all make our own choices.
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In reply to: no mate, you have missed the point. why waste your time worshipping, or loving an intangable figure that will neither give you any happiness or reward? now i am not saying 'don't ever do anything unless you are getting something out of it', but if it's intangible, it ain't worth a breath. i would much rather live happily today, here and now, and live life to best of my ability to know that on my death bed, i accomplished something, even if it is only turning a few people away from your 'god'. that will give me piece of mind knowing that i helped one person live life to their fullest, not waste it entirely on a false sense of hope. Just because one chooses to believe in God, doesn't mean they are incapable of living a full and joyous life. And YES He can give me reward and happiness, you're to blind and stubborn to let him do it, so you will never know, unless you try. And just because you might (which I highly doubt) accomplish turning some away from the path of Jesus Christ, does not mean they will live a successful and "fruitfull" life. How can you say that the life you lead is so much better then mine, when you have not yet set foot on the greener side of my pasture? You can't, you can only speculate. This is not proper christianity, but: What harm could possibly come from believing in "my God" as you so elequantly put it? I would rather chance believing in God, and knowing that Christ died for sins, and walk with Him for eternity, on the golden roads of heaven, than face eternal damnation because I was wrong, and chose not to live by His teachings. What's the worse that can happen? A: I am incorrect in my beliefs as well as my faith in God, and if so, when I die, nothing happens, I cease to exist..or. B: I'm correct, and I have the time of my life, for the rest of time. But what if you're wrong, and I'm right? Well I'm not God, but I can say, that if that is the case, you'll probably end up with a year round tan.
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In reply to:
The ONLY way you can turn to homosexuality, is AGAINST the will of God
ha ? wtf ? why`s that ?
one more thing. STOP THIS PROPAGANDA SHIT! GOD sux. The only use of religion is that it gives power to ppl. Like the kamikaze japs used it in WW2. Like the crusaders used it in the Middle Ages and just like palestinians use it today
I hate you, your GOD , and this whole shitty propaganda! -
Japanese believed in Shintoism, whereas they pray to their ancestors, this is what the kamekazi's believed. So when you say it's only to give ppl power, that's bullshit. My God doesn't command me to kill or kill myself, in fact, HE'S UTTERLY AGAINST IT!