There are people who have been raped who don't remember the rape. But might it still have some long-term effect?I realize we're talking about infants here, which makes it even more uncertain. But why take a chance, and not use more effective pain control? (Possible answers: infants are delicate and might not well tolerate certain types of anesthesia; some people performing circumcision are not well-versed in pain control techniques.)Sadly, in some parts of the world, not everyone who performs circumcision is well-versed in sterile technique.
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Just watched a video demonstrating circumsision...
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I watched the video and the music and voice of the doctor was calming....at least to the viewer. I think some people make too big a deal out of circumcision. However its an unnecessary surgery and should only be applied where medically necessary. Just my opinion.
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Steve I read the post..again its a study and NOT fact. You cannot read sometihng and because you might agree with it makr it fact, you seem to do this a lot. Atleasy when it comes to circumcision anyways.
Did you also not read all of my post?? As I stated I was there when my two younger brothers had their circumcision and they didn't flinch or anything because they were numb. In todays medicine they do use a numbing agent because infants DO feel pain.
Reguardless this is a topic not everyone is going to agree on, simple a tpoic for debating and nothing more. -
_How do we know that the infants are in pain??? _
I certainly hope you just saying that for arguments sake and you don't really think that getting cut doesn't hurt. -
In my opinion and a few studies I remember reading in psychology class in college I don't believe an infant so young will remember the pain. It's believed that a child has mainly short term memory, their long term memory isn't fully developed. Again none of that is fact and in studies but it's what I believe to be true.
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How old is your psych textbook? Obviously you didn't look at the Midwifery Today article I cited a few posts up, much less did any research.No1, I don't know how many different ways I can state this, but you can have a traumatic experience and not explicitly remember it, yet it will have an effect on you.Are you saying that there's no problem with mistreating an infant, as long as you don't leave any permanent physical scars, because he won't remember anyway?
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As was stated people can forget they were raped. But those memories can one day come back as well.
Who's to say a baby doesnt experience that?
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Are you saying that there's no problem with mistreating an infant, as long as you don't leave any permanent physical scars, because he won't remember anyway? ROFL!! When did I EVER say ANYTHING like that?? Steve you really need to stop reading into things. First off I do NOT agree with abuse of a child, no matter what its age is. But I do agree with my research I have read that states an infant will not remember circumcision.And yes I read your artical, again it was not facts just merely stating studies and such that I have stated many times.. studies are not facts.>No1, I don't know how many different ways I can state this, but you can have a traumatic experience and not explicitly remember it, yet it will have an effect on youWhen this happens usually happen when a person knowly protects themselves by forgetting something happened. Believe it or not thats a protective defense your body has. Infants really don't have this capabilty. If something is bothering them or hurts, they let you know pretty darn quick. Heck they let you know when their hungry, too hot, too cold, want theit diaper changed.. something tells me if something hurts, there gonna let you know and they are gonna continue to let you know until it stops.
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But I do agree with my research I have read that states an infant will not remember circumcision.Well, then cite it! You don't seem to put much faith in studies and research, so I don't know what the point is. A while ago, and still in some parts of the world, boys are circumcised without anesthetic. Modern medicine (do some research, for Gods sake), has concluded that infants can feel pain, regardless of what your psych book says.I can't connect a baby to a machine and tell you how traumatized he is by a circumcision. But there is good reason to belive that there's a problem there. You seem to be telling me that you are sure it's not true, base on your old textbook, or who-knows-what.Do you see the problem here? You want to do a procedure. It is then incumbent upon you to show that it is safe and causes no trauma. Doing no circumcision for sure leads to no trauma, except possibly in very rare instances.
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If I could easy site the material I would, but most of the research I read was in college in text books and lectures given by my professors. Sorry maybe I should have made that clear.As for what toher cultures do..that does not concern me. What concerns me is whats done in THIS country and my possible children. Parents need to be more proactive and make sure some form of anesthetic is being used.>Doing no circumcision for sure leads to no trauma, except possibly in very rare instances. As there are rare instances that trauma occures during circumcision.. its a win/lose topic Steve.
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\> If I could easy site the material I would, but most of the research I read was in college in text books and lectures given by my professors. Sorry maybe I should have made that clear.
Information does not become inaccessible when you leave college. There is Google, other Web resources, and libraries. A lot of journal articles are available on line. By the time you buy them, the things in your textbook are already getting old.
\> What concerns me is whats done in THIS country and my possible children.
Good for you, but there are a lot of people reading (and posting) who are not from the U.S.
\> As there are rare instances that trauma occures during circumcision.. its a win/lose topic Steve.
I was talking about psychological trauma, not just physical trauma. Wasn't that the topic. So, what is the rate (and nature) of compications from circumcision? You think that might be an interesting thing to know before having your son circumcised?
I don't know what you mean by win/lose, but it sounds like you just want to believe what you believe. No need to do any further research. No new information could possibly matter. -
Well, once we figure out that babies can remember getting circumcised, you people on here shouldn't say they do (or hint at the possibility).That didn't make sense. Once we definitively figure out anything, then it's settled. This issue is not likely to be settled any time soon.> How many guys walk around having Post Traumatic Stress Disorder just because they are cut?I don't know. And I don't know what effect it has during infancy either, not just when they're walking around. Are you implying that you know?
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you shouldn't bring up the possibility that infants can feel pain.
Stick a pin in a baby and tell me if it can feel pain.
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Well, you shouldn't bring up the possibility that infants can feel pain.What? I guess that spells the end of science. No more hypotheses, no more theories.I didn't say that infants absolutely feel pain, but I provided references to medical information in the fourth post in this thread. Are you saying that you know that it infants can't feel pain? If so, you are at odds with modern medecine.> If you can back that up with unbiased studies, then feel free to refer me to that information. Just like you tell everyone else on here, use your search engine to back up your erroneous claims.Did you actually click on any of those links? Tell me where you feel there is bias.>> And I don't know what effect it has during infancy either, not just when they're walking around. Are you implying that you know?> No, I have no idea either, but I'm getting sick of all these radical, anti-circumcision folks on here comparing rape to circimcision. It's ridiculous.As traumatic as rape is, rape victims don't own the frachise on trauma. If you think rape is just being compared to circumcision, then you're missing the point. The point is to show how mental trauma (caused by physical trama) can manifest itself.
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First of all, the issue is not whether they can remember the actual pain. The question is, what effect might the trauma of the pain have, in infancy and later? The answer is that you don't know. At least, I hope that's what your answer is.
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Again folks..this debate of every little comment or idea is really getting old. Can we please just say things and then let it go...or move this stuff to the chit chat thread.