Tis the genius of Bill O'Reilly. If he says it, it must be true. If its on his show, it must be true.
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George W. Bush
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Every time you say "agenda", I think "paranoid." I don't presume to know what other people's motivations and agendas are, and they're not relevant to the discussion. We've been over the ad hominem ground a number of times already.
For the threaded-view-impaired, here is the relevant part of the thread regarding "where they get these ideas".
SteveA:
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[Critique of Bush, then...] I'd wager that most of the world's population hates Bush, even after all the sympathy there was right after 9/11. That is very bad for the United States.
Zen:
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Yea SteveA you do have a point there. Im south african and i can tell you 95% of everyone i know hates him and well thinks americans are idiots.I know this would be a huge generalisation and there are lots of free thinking individuals out there but that seems to be the impression of the people here.I suppose because the country is so big it is easy to feel like it's a little world inside its own.
The general impression is that majority of americans have no clue what the hell is going on outside of the country.Not trying to insult anyone at all...just giving an outside perspective.
thor:
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I wonder where everybody outside of America gets these ideas about what Americans know and think? My guess is that in the vast majority of cases it wouldn't be from the average American...if an American at all.
SteveA:
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From the actions of the government that the American public elected and re-elected.
Are you saying that most Americans have a good idea of current world events? From where? CNN and Fox News? Not a large percentage of Americans read newspapers
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You should go into politics, SteveA...you answered a different question than the one I asked. One that allowed you to push your agenda.
The answer to my question is, of course, the media.
Why would I answer a rhetorical question? Of course it's the media, for people who haven't traveled here. What, then, does the media in countries outside of the U.S. present? As I said, From the actions of the government that the American public elected and re-elected. I stand by that. Bush and his people say things that are disagreeable to much of the rest of the world, and he gets re-elected. What should they think? And polls of American opinions and attitudes are not a state secret.
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The problem is two-fold. First off, the post of his I was responding to is on the previous page...hence the appearance of my response being nonsense. The second part of the problem is that another poster would have to be willing to look beyond the end of his nose to see this.
The relevant part of the thread is here. In what way does your response make any more sense?
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LOL...starts a war? You've been letting the leftist media do your thinking for you...like a lot of folks who hang out on the web these days, so I expect many to chime in with the same opinion you have. But it takes more than one country to start a war...if a war is what you want to call it. The people of Iraq call it a liberation, and a good 70% of them are glad we came. Their opinion means more to me than yours or anybody elses. In fact, it's really got nothing to do with you.
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"Why would I answer a rhetorical question?"I've got a better one. Why answer a rhetorical question by giving an answer that doesn't pertain to the rhetorical question!?
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Actually it's more to do with the Irish than we're comfortable with Thor. Since US warplanes are refuelling at Shannon airport we have already been on the receiving end of threats from Islamic fundamentalists. We don’t doubt that they are fully capable of carrying out their threats, since they have already bombed our nearest neighbour. Our government may well find themselves out on their arse at the next election and if they do certainly some people will be voting against them with that in mind. Over one hundred thousand people marched in Dublin against the war in Iraq, which, in a country of five million people, is a decent turn out. Our governments ignoring the expressed wishes of the Irish people in assisting the US by allowing them use of Irish airspace and airports pissed a lot of people off here, in that they put us squarely in the firing line. We have already been declared 'enemies of Islam', so yes, unfortunately it does have more then we'd like 'to do with us'.
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I've got new for you, starfish. If you are not of Islam, you have already been declared an enemy of Islam...long before any of this took place. That's the reality. US or no US, they would (and will) eventually come after you (Ireland)...and every other non-Islamic country. It helps them out to get a large part of the world to blame the US for everything, though...and most people buy it, too. Largely because it's shoved down their throats daily by a media with an anti-US agenda (for completely different reasons...at least on the surface).If you voted against helping the US out and your government went ahead and did so anyway, then, yeah, you've got a beef with them...not the US. If Islam says they've targeted you in hopes you'll bend your ways to their will, that's blackmail. If you think that placating them will make them go away and leave you alone, then you didn't learn anything from history (think Hitler). Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. England is making that mistake now, as is France, Germany and Spain. Placating Islam will only lead to further trouble...I guarantee it. There is no connection between the Islamic threats you receive and what is happening in Iraq...but the Islamic radicals would surely like you to believe otherwise.
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"There is no connection between the Islamic threats you receive and what is happening in Iraq"
That's just not true Thor; the threats were in direct response to Irelands allowing US warplanes use of Irish airports and airspace, as I've said. And there was no vote as to whether the US war effort was assisted by Ireland; that is one of the main bones of contention among the Irish electorate.
I dont know where you got the idea that I felt the Irish 'have beef' with the US, they dont. Most Irish people are in no way anti American, their sentiments are not anti American, they're anti war. It is rare to find an Irish person who, somewhere in their lineage, didnt have relatives emigrate to the States, which is why there are forty million plus Irish Americans living there now.
I am aware that Islamic fundamentalists hold that off the wall view that if you are not of Islam you are not deserving of drawing a breath in this world, it's fucking sick and crazy, obviously, but there are fundamentalists in every religious culture in the world, and they are often violent head-cases.
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Please excuse my following reply for any small errors, I'm still in shock that you actually think that the US didn't start the war.A rogue terrorist group attacked the US, a terrorist group that was being sheltered in Afghanistan. There have been absolutely no proven links between Al-Qaeda and Iraq. Nor any link between Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. (If any country should be attacked for being linked with Osama Bin laden, it should be Saudi Arabia.) The original threat from Iraq, those lovely little weapons of mass destruction, were never found.If the object of the war in Iraq was to overthrow Saddam and install democracy, then altho that seems nice and all, but it is illegal. Article 2(4) of the UN Charter states: "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations." In reply to: The people of Iraq call it a liberation, and a good 70% of them are glad we came. And you got this number where?Because the Gallup Poll, a nationwide survey of over 3,500 Iraqis, says otherwise26.a Do you think of the Coalition forces mostly as occupiers, or mostly as liberators?Mostly as occupiers 71%Mostly as liberators 19%Both equally 8%Don’t know 2%Refuse to say *26.b At the time of the invasion last spring, did you personally think of the Coalition forces mostly as occupiers, or mostly as liberators?Mostly as occupiers 43%Mostly as liberators 43%Both equally 9%Don’t Know 4%Refuse to say *
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Bush is too cosy with the Saudi aristocracy to ever direct an attack there Bob.
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I understand your thinking about the Islamic threats. I could threaten you, too...doesn't mean anything would happen though.
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I know, its rediculous!"The U.S. warmly supports the royal kleptocracy next door in Saudi Arabia, fully as totalitarian, if not quite as violent, as Saddam's government. Any non-Muslim and most women would probably prefer living in Iraq."(A quote from this article in the National Review from 2002.)
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Are you comparing yourself to Islamic terrorists? I have tried my best not to shout insults at you, but could you possibley be that retarded???
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I think the Saudi Royals had much more to do with the US liberation of Iraq than most folks (including the media) give them credit for. Saddam was underselling oil out the back door through Syria right under OPEC's nose and pissing the Saudi's off big time by keeping down their price of oil. Think about it.
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Acting like you don't understand my point gets old fast, bob.
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Removing your points from your arse and posting them is getting old fast too.A group of terrorist have openly identified us as enemies after a specific act on our government's part. This terrorist group did the same for many nations who assisted the US in their War on Terror, such as Britain and Spain. Do you remember what happened in London last Summer? Or in Madrid in 2004?Whether the majority or minority of Iraqis believe the US to be liberators, the Islamic extremists do not.
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"I could threaten you, too...doesn't mean anything would happen though"But wouldnt a threat from you be far more worthy of serious consideration if I knew that you had murdered people in the past Thor?
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In reply to: When the people of nation elect a government that starts a war, and then the people re-elect that same government after no attempts of ending the war are made, is it not safe to assume that the people support the war for whatever reasons? Oh yes, thats true! Thankfully :nods:
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In reply to: Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. England is making that mistake now Huh? How so? We, (Britain, not England please) are in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. We're not placating anyone. Btw Bob and Thor, any arguement based on what the Iraqi people want is irrelevant. Well, I mean you may well care what they think, but I dont value their opinion atall. Noone likes to have their country invaded even if they are ruled by a dictator. We want to establish a secular, pro-West government there, thats all. The people will then have to re-adjust.
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"We want to establish a secular, pro-West government there, thats all. The people will then have to re-adjust"
Oh, is 'that all'? The establishment of that 'secular, pro-West government' costs, and the currency is human lives. By your logic the extremists who bombed London could equally claim 'we just want to put our point across, people are dead but sure, their families will have to re-adjust'.
That was quite a puke inducing post.
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Well allow me to expand. We want to establishment a secular, pro-west government that lets us use the country as a base to attack other countries like Iran and Syria. That really is all. There is no other benefit for attacking Iraq. We're certainly not there for democracy in of itself, and the oil arguement doesnt stand up to scrutiny (must I really evaluate on that?).