The Popes address on Islam..

---

We need to stop Islam from slaughtering folks now...then figure out how we got to this point to begin with (where we need to worry about stopping them).

In reply to:Now what does any of this have to do with the Pope's remarks? Please clarify.

Shoot now, ask questions later?

It has as much to do with the Pope's remarks as does your comments about the history of the Catholic church. More so I think...because at least I speak of current times instead of times long past. Dredging up the past is indicative of your agenda that I previously mentioned and you denied having.

We need to stop Islam from slaughtering folks nowDoes things that happened a few years ago count, like firebombing abortion clinics, murdering doctors who perform abortions, and all of the things the Christian Identity movement has been involved in?The point of dredging up "old" history is to show that people can be manipulated in the name of religion to commit violence. Nationalism and overblown fear of a diffuse, hard-to-define enemy are some other mediators of violence.The Old Testament discusses slave ownership, selling daughters into slavery, and putting people to death for various infractions insulting to God, such as working on the Sabbath. Are fundamentalist Jews and Christians a danger?> We need to stop Islam from slaughtering folks nowIslam is slaughtering folks? The Catholic Church, General Motors, and the Hungarian government are examples of institutions. Islam is not an institution.What is your idea for ending violence in the name of Islam? So far, the U.S.'s current course doesn't seem to be effective, based on the number of terrorist attacks, and deaths from terrorist attacks, that have occurred since the end of 2001.The United States is such a violent place. According to CNN, "One murder occurred in the United States every 32.6 minutes" (based on 2004 statistics). Shouldn't non-Islamic violence also be a priority?

Okidokey, this whole thread just took me an age to read through, but, I feel it's time I put in, as I've heard american's say: "my two cents" ... well, as far as I'm concerned, I can't deny what's happened in the past with the Catholic Church, after all, isn't that what history books are for? to inform us of the past, and, from what I can see, it would be a fairer comment to say that, it's from learning from these books that we (as people, not as a religion or anything else... I mean "we" as in the combined power of people not necessarily of any particular background, for clarification in case anyone thinks I'm going radical here) can prevent things like this from happening again ... the point, I feel has been lost through this thread, so, I will make a simpler point as a demonstration... At the beginning of world war 2, Hitlers armies marched against various countries, and, the larger powers at the time ignored it thinking "oh, it's only xxxx country, it doesn't matter he won't come here" but of course, eventually things got to the point where he did arrive in the larger countries, now, I know some of you will be thinking I've used this as an example because the pope is german, this is simply not true, I've used this example because at the end of this war, NATO was formed, as a "pre-emptive" force to stop things like that from happening in the future, now, perhaps how the speech was phrased, or even interpreted by people is entirely different to the meaning I feel it was meant to convey ... I feel it was merely intended as a pre-emptive statement to state that radicalism should not be encouraged, as it is being in many Muslim area's at the moment (note: I DID NOT SAY ALL or even for that matter MOST ... many = more than one, and less than all), as it is a path that the catholic church has been down before, and it doesn't lead to any good, as a world, we've been down that path, and to this end, Germany is not even allowed to form a Nationalist party anymore (something that is still prolific throughout the world in other countries (but is viewed in itself as a form of radicalism in Germany)... all you have to do is search the web for them, if you don't believe me) and that in itself is a form of "radicalism" if you view it properly, so, perhaps the pope was wrong to point it out in the muslim form, but, perhaps that was just the best example he could form, as it is difficult for me to find examples here without agreeing or disagreeing with his speech, as I do neither, I have my own views, and, I can't claim to know what goes on in the pope's head, so, I won't claim to, all I can do is offer a point of view, as I am currently doing.For the record, I am neither muslim, nor catholic, I am from a church that shouldn't even exist (gee... thanks Henry VIII) but, it does, and though it is basically the same belief's as catholosism, I am not a practising member of my religion, and, nor will I be, for reasons already stated in other threads.Also: I puprosely DID NOT state German armies... though, they were, they were under Hitler's control, and, he was Austrian, so, please, don't go saying that I'm using him as a proxy for the pope either, as I have already stated that I don't go either way on this, simply to point out that many things could have been meant, and, my interpretation of what was meantOh, and, the catholic church released an apology for this speech, if I remember the news correctly, so, really it's a null point anyway!! lol ... all this typing for essentially a null point, oh well... everyone has a point of view chat soon... hope I haven't rocked the boat to much,oh, and, SteveA ... I've noticed you do pick a few peoples threads to bits, it seems to be antagonising a few people, so, perhaps, if you do intend to do that, you could err on the side of caution there, after all, if you pick a side, you have to stand with your decisions, and to stay with my whole WWII thing goin on here... it didn't quite work out the way Italy planned, did it really!! (in other words: try not to "pick on people" to much... there's a reason italian tanks had 5 reverse gears!)Dan

I can't figure out what point you were making. Are you drawing an analogy to the rise of naziism and radical Islam? I think your key statement is:In reply to:I feel it was merely intended as a pre-emptive statement to state that radicalism should not be encouraged, as it is being in many Muslim area's at the momentIt's not clear to me what the Pope's intention was in the speech, where he quoted someone from long ago berating Islam. It may have been purely academic, or it may have been that the Pope was raising a warning about present-day Islam.In any case I stand by what I said:In reply to:The point of dredging up "old" history is to show that people can be manipulated in the name of religion to commit violence.So, how do we fight against violence inspired by radical religious belief? Can we just bomb it into oblivion? The U.S.'s present course is making the problem worse, by radicalizing many more people, if you believe the recent National Intellegece Estimate (the product of 16 American intelligence agencies).What is the Pope's solution?

sorry... just caught that... In reply to: unsupervised - He meant the Crusades...get a clue. ummm... I think I know a bit more about all that than you do, unless you have some insight to offer.

Oh, NOW you see that! After I defended you!And before Thor even posts, let me sum up his reply: "You're lying to benefit your own purpose and/or agenda!"

aww...thanks buddysorry I was abscent from the thread for a bit

Were you absent from the thread to promote your agenda?

SteveA: I was pointing out that radicalism in any form is not a good thing, the keys to note, are how Hitler rose to power using the way the german people felt persecuted after WWI, which is a similar thing to what is happening currently with the muslim religion, a general feeling that due to acts post 2001 they are being persecuted, hence drawing more people to the so called cause against "western oppression" which is a mistaken point of view, because people would do well to remember that we live in a multicultural society, where freedom of expression is encouraged, including religious outlets, certain members of the islam community are simply twisting things to suit their personal views, as an excuse to create oppression of their own, if we are to listen to history (not only seen in nazism, but, look at the crusades, among others)

As it happens I agree with your point that religion can be twisted to suit another persons views, I thought I had expressed this clearly enough, but, evidently I did not, that is among my key points in both this thread and the previous, that people's points of view are easily warped to suit what they want to believe will lead them to a better life, unfortunately, the catholic church hasn't exactly had a shining reputation for a long time now, and, Germany suffered greatly following the end of ww2, so, people would do well to remember that radicalism will eventually give way to the greater good of freedom of expression... it may take many years, and, I'm not advocating a war on terror, though I would point out that what the media reports about what happens, and what actually happens in those area's, is not going to be entirely the same and, "we" as the armed forces went in with the intention of removing from power a corrupt government in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and, if you see any of the interviews, the general populace on the whole is happy to have our presence there, however obviously there are radical forces who will always move against any show of westernised force... hopefully though, it will become more apparent as we start to pull out of Iraq over the next few years that we were there to remove from power a corrupt government, not, and I cannot stress this point enough, Not to oppress an already oppressed people... if this point of view is not believed by you, or others for that matter, then, you need to do a little bit of research on protests... there may be protests against us being there, but, let me ask you this: would the people dare protest under the Hussein leadership? I would venture an educated guess and say: No, due largely to the fact that under this government, protestors would be handcuffed to a lamppost, and have their tongue cut out, left to bleed to death, and anyone who tried to help them would suffer the same fate!

So, you see in theory we are there for the greater good, however, even this view can be twisted by radicalist parties who wish to spread Islam throughout the world, and those who won't convert will be "infadels" in the eyes of islam, and thus, executed... much the same way that the jewish community was almost wiped off the face of the planet due to Hitlers views that they were initially the "oppressors" ... taking all of the good jobs!

From my experiences in the middle east, a "true" muslim, such as from even a nation that is supposed to be friendly to the western world, like for example Saudi Arabia will consider a westerner to be like dirt on their shoe, and, I have seen this view expressed first hand on more than one occassion, during my stay, and, I can inform you now, it was not because of my job, nobody there outside of where I was working knew that I was in the armed forces at all.

I can obviously not speak for all, simply those who I came into contact with, I found many to be very helpful in their views, and, just like anyone else, and, as far as I'm concerned, there is very little to do with religion when it comes to things like living a normal life and having frineds, or even falling in love, but, there are still a lot of people with the view that you must be a certain religion to do certain things :S ... as ever, it would seem to be the few spoiling things for the many... after all, any radicalist view will start with a minority, I think the point was that we need to "educate" (for lack of a better term) those who would initially have this radicalist view, and, show them how the world is not as it appears in their mind, because, I have no wish to oppress anyone at all, and, as far as I am aware, neither does anyone else who I know, or work with, and, we are all from different races/religions, some of which are even from the Muslim community, to name but one of the many I work with.

Anyway, I realise that this may be inflamatory, however it is not meant as such, so please, if you find it inflmatory read through it twice, to see that I am not passing judgement, after all, none of us are totally innocent of everything, so, who am I to pass judgement.

Dan

Wait, wait, wait. I thought I was the one with alleged "agenda."Mr. U if you had my agenda out and about in public I expect it freshly cleaned and pressed when returned. Oh shit! I just realized I may have had an agenda stolen I didn't even know I had.

Apperently I have an agenda, the liberal media has an agenda, and people who post to message boards have an agenda. I know that the cat has an agenda: he wants as much food as he can get, as often as possible. I'm not sure what his hidden agenda is, though.Who cares if we have agendas...I'm just glad that the President of the United States and the Fox News channel have no agendas, and even if they had agendas, you couln't really say that they were actually one and the same...could you?

Yes, radical violent religion is very bad. That's obvious.That all of Islam is radical and violent, much less all Muslims? Not obvious.What to do about the situation? Not obvious at all. Buying less Middle Eastern oil would be an obvious start. Iran didn't have as much freedom to thumb its nose at the world when oil prices were lower, for example.We trot out Hitler and World War II analogies far too often. We do need to learn from history, but forcing everything into the mold of World War II doesn't usually add much value.

I think that if oil ever sinks back down to $30 a barrel, Iran will become significantly more humble.

Thanks Scotty for the offer of your adgenda. I'll promote you adgenda as long as it doesn't interfere with my own.
My hidden agenda is often exposed when someone undoes my pants.