Catholic Belief...

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I'm intrigued by what someone told me. They said catholics are not supposed to use contraception, fair enough. But what about a catholic having intercourse with a non-catholic? Assuming the non-catholic was a male, would he have to go unprotected? It seems confusing, and if the non-catholic was female, would she be able to use other forms of contraception during sex?

Well, someone correct me if I'm wrong but: 1) Catholics DO NOT have sex outside marriage. 2) Catholics can ONLY marry Catholics. If the person they want to marry isn't not Catholic, that person must convert in order for the couple to get married in the Catholic church. 3) The reason why Catholics don't use contraceptives is that sex in the Catholic religion is ONLY for procreation. So, any sex within the marriage should only be done if having babies is the main goal. So, the situation you gave, would never happen. Well, it would happen, but not with a true practicing Catholic. What I'm saying is, the people involved should BOTH be wearing protection. If someone refuses to wear a condom, or have sex with someone who is wearing a condom because they're "Catholic"... they're lying.

Disregard the above. We don't live in an idealogical world my friend.I have many Catholic friends who have protected sex. And NO, them having sex outside of marriage or with protection does not make them not-catholic. They may be be seen as "bad" catholics in the eyes of their elders but they are not un-christian in the eyes of God. Thats what pisses me off. People assume that if you don't live by every-single-one of the lines of the Bible (most of which was written by man) that you will not be in favour with God or go to heaven. I'm a Christian and I can tell you thats bullshit. Ya accept Christ as your saviour, invite him into your life, and acknowledge he has died for your sins and TRY to live as moral a life as you can and your in heaven (at least by what I was taught mind you I am protestant so we are a bit more lenient then Catholics).1) Catholics DO have sex outside of marriage. It happens. It's life. The lord knows that for he has created us and knows us. He knows what we have done, what we are doing, and what we shall do. May not make what we do right but he realizes we are all sinners and accepts us for our faults. It's called love. He rules through love. He does not rule through fear (though the Catholic church seems to forget that little aspect).2) Catholics CAN marry non-catholics. I do forget which part of the bible it was in but it said that many many people in our history have been converted to Christianity because their spouse helped them into God's life. It is CULTURALLY not encouraged. IT IS A CULTURAL THING that catholics should only marry catholics.3) It is in the bible were it is a man's responsibility to please his wife. It is the wife's responsibility to please her husband as well. I don't think pleasing a husband/wife is solely delegated to the task of producing babies. Again, if you study the history of the bible, Man put that in the bible where sex should only be used as a means of procreation.Hardcore Catholics say that they are not supposed to use protection because it interfers with God's plan for the production of children. There is a huge flaw in this idea though. God knows everything past, present, future. If he really saw a whole of his kingdom use contraception and interferring with his plans he likely wouldn't be too pleased with that. You think he'd do something. Another conundrum is the idea that God gave us everything we have. From matches to the nuclear bomb. Which also means he gave us contraception. Kinda funny he'd bestow the gift of contraception on us but tell us not to use it don't ya think?So there ya have it. If you study the bible you will find that it has been altered a lot by the church especially in the early early middle ages. Also keep in mind that if you do research this topic there is also a lot of "conspiracy theory" junk you have to avoid! So, I'll sit back now and await a huge flame from a hardcore catholic... God knows I'm in for one

You sound like a good Protestant. Isn't that the definition of a Christian who disregards everything that the Pope says?sexibck> 3) The reason why Catholics don't use contraceptives is that sex in the Catholic religion is ONLY for procreation. So, any sex within the marriage should only be done if having babies is the main goal. Sticking with the strict interpretation, what if the husband or wife is infertile, due to illness, inherited condition, or old age? Can the couple have sex, even if there is no possibility of pregnancy?

I am a non practicing Catholic and I've read a fair bit of nonsense on this thread; it's out of proportion to the size of the thread actually. Here are two particular gems:Sexibck: “Catholics can ONLY marry Catholics. If the person they want to marry isn't not Catholic, that person must convert in order for the couple to get married in the Catholic church”That hasn’t been the case for many decades now. In fact it was the middle of the last century since that statement had any truth in it. Ireland’s indigenous people have one of the most densely Catholic populations on earth and I have attended many Catholic Church ceremonies adjoining Catholics with those of many different religious beliefs. Since the Church takes its instruction directly from the Vatican I assume the same applies in Catholic populations elsewhere, but since I don’t live in any other country I can only speak for what is going on here.Hyperion: “It is CULTURALLY not encouraged. IT IS A CULTURAL THING that catholics should only marry catholics”That is no truer than the same statement with the terms Protestant/Islamic/Hindu substituted for Catholic.And to answer your question Steve; there has been a big shift away from the Church in this country in the last forty years. Prior to that the teaching of the Church would have been that if a woman was unable to have children, then that was Gods will. There was nothing to stop them continuing to try for children, as we simply hadn’t the money to avail of the technology in Ireland of the latter part of the last century and further back to identify women as infertile. I am not sure at what point that technology became medically available, but it certainly wouldnt have been economically available anyway, to the masses. You have to understand that this was a nation of rampant poverty (at least for most of the indigenous people, for many centuries, which was the cause of the constant trickle of emigration) and there was widespread ignorance regarding all issues surrounding every area of sexual health, including reproduction. The age of marital consent was so low that many elderly women today report attending weddings where the bride and groom would be out playing skipping rope after the service! That should give people an idea of how ridiculous the situation was. I am sure though, that if in those days for whatever reason a priest knew that a woman would certainly be unable to conceive, he would have advised her not to have sex with her husband as the Church’s take on that would have been that there was no ‘reason’ to do so! Crazy I know, but my assessment is rooted in everything I've ever read about our religious history here.The whole point of a woman being encouraged never to use contraception (which was illegal here until 1976) and told that sex was all about procreation was a double bind. On one hand the Church were trying to push their take on 'sexual purity' and on the other they wanted plenty of kids in order to swell the numbers of the Church.I've read extensively about our history of the last century and some of the attitudes and conditions were truly shocking. It was not at all uncommon for a woman to have twelve or fourteen kids (and sometimes many more, often herded together like sheep, living, eating and sleeping in a single room. These areas of Dublin were known as 'the Tenements', both of my parents were born in these, the last of the Dublin slums) If somebody asked a women how many children she had and she answered 'three or four' she would be met by the common response 'oh, you don’t love your husband'!These are the sorts of attitudes women were up against, and they were deliberately reinforced by the Church.

About not having sex if one or both are infertile: Wow, the Church is pretty serious about that. You could argue that, even if you're elderly, there's some chance of a pregnancy, or that a miracle could happen. That would be a difficult case to make for a woman who had a hysterectomy; occasionally, very young women need one.It sounds like an important function of the Church was to keep Ireland in grinding poverty through huge families.

"It sounds like an important function of the Church was to keep Ireland in grinding poverty through huge families"Historians here have argued both that point and the point that, while poverty indeed suited and supported the Catholic Church's agenda, the actual cause of it had stronger roots in our background as a colonised nation. I believe there is truth in both points, but that the latter point has more bearing when trying to identify the origins of poverty in Ireland. I saw it, I remember it, and I am only thirty years old. The seventies and eighties here were the tail end of centuries of economic depression, my own father travelled to London to work in those times. It is no coincidence, I think, that as soon as contraception became legal and therefore widely available here (in '76, as I've said) the most wretched of our poverty began to dwindle and disappear along with the traditional family size of the working classes. There were other factors of course in the ending of wide scale poverty in Ireland, some of them more influential than the arrival of legal contraception, but it was still a huge turning point to my mind. There was a family around the corner from us with twentytwo kids, TWENTYTWO KIDS for fucks sake, in the early 1980's! And if you could have seen the dirt of them.. In fairness though, even in those times, a family of that size was considered shocking.The Church do not change their tune on matters of contraception etc, but they are less vocal about it these days because off the massive falling away of numbers attending masses; I think they're holding on by their eye-teeth to the few they have left.

The idea of non-agricultural populations having huge families seems to be inconsistent with accumultion of wealth. Something had to give.The Catholic Church was able to keep up the membership rolls, but when it came to the point that most of their people were drifting away from the Church....something had to give.

The separation between Church and State marked the beginning of the end for the Catholic Church in Ireland, in my opinion. The two were once so tightly entwined that the Church practically ran the country, but as soon as the government started making decisions independent of the influence of the Church (such as the introduction of birth control) I really think that signalled the Churches impending demise. Incidentally, it was the very close entwinement of those two institutions that allowed the Church to get away with some of the more horrific abuses of power for which they have since been found guilty.My twelve year old is a Catholic, simply because at seventeen I didn’t know how big a role the hierarchy of the Church had played in the abuse of children here; I knew of course that some priests had been exposed as paedophiles, what I didn’t know was that the Church had deliberately protected those paedophiles and moved them from parish to parish in order that they could reoffend elsewhere, out of sight, and that those decisions had been made at higher levels than any of us could ever have imagined. If I ever have more children, as I plan to do, it pains me that I could not consider having them christened as Catholics. I haven’t the hypocrisy.

> I didn't know how big a role the hierarchy of the Church had played in the abuse of children here

Pedophiles yes, but also, in Ireland, orphanages, and homes for pregnant single women.

The folks in the U.S. who think that the church should be more involved in government affairs should take a lesson from Ireland and many other places (including England at the time of the formation of America)...but they are generally ignorant of world history.

"Pedophiles yes, but also, in Ireland, orphanages, and homes for pregnant single women"Yes, those are included; that would go without saying here, as they were ALL run by different orders of the Catholic Church. Incidentally, it might surprise some people to know that the nuns had every bit as horrendous a reputation in mid 1900's Ireland as the priests."..they are generally ignorant of world history"Hmmm; in order to advocate such interference, they'd have to be.

I find my statement about Catholics only marrying Catholics being heavily culturall influenced holds up.Look at Europe. The whole continent is soooo segmented. Not even just religion but by nation. Italians are only supposed to marry Italians, Greek are only supposed to marry Greeks, Germans are only supposed to marry Germans.... Way too much pride. And no I'm not saying those are the only 3 nations that do that, It is only example.So likewise it's only natural that very important things in those cultures are incorperated in their dating/marriage norms & practices. Hence it becomes Italians only marry other Catholic Italians.Look at North America were it isn't quite as segmented. For crying out loud my Catholic friend is dating an Islamic guy and they have a great relationship. We weren't raised thinking Canadians should only marry Canadians because we are a nation of immigrants. We mingle. American culture is very much the same. If I am wrong then why are American & Canadian Catholics marrying non-catholics, dating non-catholics, having sex before marriage, using protection? Europeans might view us as morally wrong and corrupted, truth is we just weren't raised in the same way. We were brought up with different priorities. Europes way is not right. It is not wrong. NA's was isn't right or wrong either. It's about culture. And if you think culture does not affect religion your really diluting yourself! And holy cow!!! 22 kids?! Thats nuts lol.... I would have trouble naming them after 5!

That's why I said "Well, it would happen, but not with a true practicing Catholic." Of course we don't live in a perfect world, but a "practicing Catholic" shouldn't be having sex outside marriage. I didn't say "true catholic", I said "true practicing Catholic". They aren't a practicing Catholic if they are haveing sex outside marriage.

SteveA: Sticking with the strict interpretation, what if the husband or wife is infertile, due to illness, inherited condition, or old age? Can the couple have sex, even if there is no possibility of pregnancy? Not according to the Catholic Church. Protestants can, but not "practicing" Catholics.

starfish: That hasn't been the case for many decades now. In fact it was the middle of the last century since that statement had any truth in it. Ireland's indigenous people have one of the most densely Catholic populations on earth and I have attended many Catholic Church ceremonies adjoining Catholics with those of many different religious beliefs.
The only case I see this being true is that both husband and wife promise to raise the children Catholic. Most churches will not marry people unless both are baptised in the Catholic Church.

Europeans might view us as morally wrong and corruptedYou gotta be kidding. Western Europe is as religious as my refrigerator. Except for the Muslim immigrants, I don't think most Western Eurpeans much care, one way or the other. In Eastern Europe, Orthodox churches predominate.The Catholic church killed their golden goose by being an organ of the government, and becoming power-crazy and completely corrupted. Corruption is what is generally produced by unchecked power.It's the Latin American and African Catholics who view us as sex-crazed, Godless degenerates. The Catholic church is dying out in North America and Europe.

I am a Catholic and in what nearly everyone has said about the Catholic tradition is correct. The main fact is that there is huge variation. Even though the Catholic tradition is only one church there is many levels. For instance when I was only 8 going into my teens I had to go to a tradition Catholic Class outside of school. The people there would never have sex before marriage, use contraception or marry a non-Catholic. Then there are people who believe the key facts like the beliefs stated in the Apostles Creed but then bend other rules like sex before marriage, contraception and whether they go to mass every Sunday.
If you look at my family alone you can see the major changes due to our individual context. Mum and Dad = tradition, Brother = married non Catholic (who has no religion) yet married in a Church and didn't convert (in this Case my brother who was the practicing Catholic still recieves the graces associalted with the Sacrament), Sister = living with her male partner for 10 yrs who is father of her children Atheists, another sister living with b/f(who is Christian but not practicing), yet she is still a practicing Catholic who just bends the rules a bit.

In one word : VARIANTION

Phoebe is correct. I went to private catholic schools my whole life. It was grilled into our heads: no sex before marriage, no contraception while married, and if you wanted to marry a non-catholic it was ideal for them to convert. But even then, people always bent the 'rules'. Look at me, I am unmarried, two kids, not sure if I believe in God, and I am living in sin.

In reply to: I would have trouble naming them after 5! lol thats when you start using numbers , thats Jamie and Jimmy, Rodd and Tod and Billy, then #6,#7,#8,#9,#10,#11,#12,#13,#14 and so on In reply to: For crying out loud my Catholic friend is dating an Islamic guy and they have a great relationship. i kinda know what you mean, i am a white ,nothing (I.E no religion whatsoever) dating a black avid christian girl, but none of those factors really matter to me or her, and we have a great relationship

Well my oldest sister married a Catholic man and she refused to convert and they still were able to get married through the Catholic Church. But before the church would marry them, my sister had to sign a document stating that when they have children they would be raised Catholic.My cousin is catholic and has been married for around 13-14 years and they have 10 children (Or is it 11 now..hmmm). He goes by the book and uses no protection for sex. They would have more children but the doc told his wife that if she continued having a child every year (which they did for the first 8 years of their marriage) she could and most likely would develop some serious complication. They waited like 2-3 years and are now back to have babies again. We're just waiting for the announcement this year she's pregnant again.