By the way, I forget who said so, but it is in no way uncommon for a woman to have her clitorus head cut off in this practice. It is all to common, from what I've read.The procedure is often carried out to conform to a tradition which sees it as necessary and even desirable to eliminate a womans sexual response, and in the cultures where FGM is carried out for those reasons clitoridectomy is often regarded as essential to achieving that aim.
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FGM case in Atlanta
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Thank you for getting this thread back on topic. That was a interesting story.
Here's a link to the different forms of FGM.
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There's a Nigerian M.D. is South Carolina who defends the practice of "female circumcision". Amazing.The link I posted above also has imformation on the different types of FGM, plus some other links and references at the bottom.Other than being upset about the injustice of it, is there anything we can do to help?
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Steve, if you don't think this thread has anything to be added to it, then why do you keep posting on it?Please, if you don't have anything relevant to add, then don't add it.
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Jeeeeeez, you're still in a foul mood. You've misinterpreted my post, which was meant to be taken literally. Chill out, dude.
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In reply to:
Treating a slave good or bad is just as important (according to the Bible) as treating anybody else good or bad. Seems in this regard that the Bible treats slaves as equals. We live in a society today that has deamed it unacceptable to have a social class defined as "slave".
...and...
I suppose I should add, for the sake of clarity, that the Bible is focussed on spiritual issues. This would seem to indicate that a person's social status is not an issue when it comes to the applicability of the Bible.
This is a very sensible take on the Bible. I agree with it.
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Treating a slave good or bad is just as important (according to the Bible) as treating anybody else good or bad.What does it mean to treat a slave "good"?> Seems in this regard that the Bible treats slaves as equals.What does it mean to teat a slave as equal? Is that not a self-contradiction?As practiced, slavery was an ugly institution in America, and just as bad in other parts of the world. Most Americans have not idea how truly vile it was. Almost all the slave holders were Christians, some of whom considered themselves, "good Christians."If God had compassion, why didn't he emphasize the wrongfulness of slavery? Or was it only a problem when Jews were enslaved, rather than black people?It's the same deal with the genocide in Darfur, and like wise for female genital mutilation in North Africa. There are a few odd groups who are trying to do something about it, including some Christian groups. But by and large, no one gives a damn, including all the religious hypocrites among us.
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This is an excellent article overall Starfish. Thanks for bringing it here. I have a couple of comments about it. In reply to: Use of the same instrument on several girls without sterilization can cause the spread of HIV. I absolutely hate when a sensible article departs the sensible focus and takes a walk on the wild side by attempting a long-shot connection between the writer's point and a current hot-button issue. HIV is a hot-button issue, but the number of bad things that can be spread this way boggles the mind. As this is primarily done to prepubescent girls the likelihood of spreading an STD is low compared to the risks of other things. Mentioning only the hot-button disease tells me this is an attempt to be a bit manipulative, by Amnesty International in this case. In reply to: indeed one of the reasons put forth by advocates of the practice is that it discourages excessive masturbation and that a mutilated woman is far less likely to be unfaithful to her husband. Indeed, I think this is the primary reason this practice was started. That it has become a cultural practice defended by even its victims in many areas is undeniable, but its origin is most likely in reducing the likelihood of infidelity. The only real connection between FGM and religion is that they both address the issue of fidelity, but that's it. Anything else is a stretch beyond the rational in my view, whether it's proponents of a particular religion adopting it or accusing religious beliefs of causing it.I join the consensus here in saying that I feel the practice is horrible. As a father of daughters I would regard such mutilation as reason to beat the crap out of someone. It's like cutting out someone's tongue so they can't curse. I don't like cursing, but that isn't a good way to stop it.
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In reply to: > Treating a slave good or bad is just as important (according to the Bible) as treating anybody else good or bad.<What does it mean to treat a slave "good"?> Seems in this regard that the Bible treats slaves as equals.<What does it mean to teat a slave as equal? Is that not a self-contradiction? Cutting it up in that fashion DOES make it hard to understand. I recommend you read the original post, which I found to be quite clear and easy to comprehend.
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You said, "This is a very sensible take on the Bible. I agree with it."What thor said makes very little sense, unless you have a new definition for "good" and "equal".The important point is that most of the world's population describes itself as religious, yet most of the world doesn't give a damn about the atrocities that go on. How is it that Islamic nations have nothing to say about the genocide against Muslims in Sudan? Or about the FGM that goes on in various Islamic regions of North Africa, some of which the U.S. has friendly relations with?When 10,000 people died in Kosovo, the U.S. went in. I guess it helps to be white.---------------------There's an article in the Oct. 1995 issue of Atlantic Monthly by Linda Burstyn, "Female Circumcision Comes to America", that shows that the FGM problem in the U.S. is not new.Fauziya Kasinga wrote about her experience in her book, Do They Hear You When You Cry?. She was from Togo, and came to the U.S. in the mid-90's, seeking asylum because was going to be forced to have her genitals mutilated. She was held in detention for 16 months, until she won her case in federal court. It's just amazing what she had to go through, when a Cuban can just step onto the beach near where I live and be home free.
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"HIV is a hot-button issue, but the number of bad things that can be spread this way boggles the mind. As this is primarily done to prepubescent girls the likelihood of spreading an STD is low compared to the risks of other things. Mentioning only the hot-button disease tells me this is an attempt to be a bit manipulative, by Amnesty International in this case"I wouldn’t agree Lanky, at least not thoroughly; I would have some reservations about your point of view here, for a couple of different reasons:Firstly, Amnesty International do go on to say "More commonly , the chronic infections, intermittent bleeding, abscesses and small benign tumours of the nerve which can result from clitoridectomy and excision cause discomfort and extreme pain. FGM can have even more serious long-term effects: chronic urinary tract infections, stones in the bladder and urethra, kidney damage, reproductive tract infections resulting from obstructed menstrual flow, pelvic infections, infertility, excessive scar tissue, keloids, which are raised, irregularly shaped, progressively enlarging scars and dermoid cysts. So I do think that they acknowledge there are many more widespread problems than the risk of HIV transmission alone, and also they note "chronic infections", which I presume would also cover other STD's and blood-borne viruses, such as hep C etc.I think too that to consider the possible spread of HIV in this manner could not quite be considered scare mongering, because the use of the same implement on prepubescent girls in underdeveloped areas of the world is really not the same thing (most particularly in case of Africa) as it would be were the same practice taking place among the children of the Western world. The prepubescent stage of life here assumes the absence of such diseases, but that is, unfortunately, simply not the case in a lot of these countries, and the appallingly high rate of children actually born with the HIV virus in Africa would make the practice of widespread use of unsterilised utensils dangerous to my mind."It's like cutting out someone's tongue so they can't curse. I don't like cursing, but that isn't a good way to stop it"That is an excellent comparison; it's a pity I didn’t think of it myself, it might have earned me a few extra points, lol!
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Thanks for the link. I read that and it supports everything I have already discovered about this practice. I'd like to point out that the very first statement that report makes in describing the different types of FGM was this:'In the commonest form of this procedure the clitoris is held between the thumb and index finger, pulled out and amputated with one stroke of a sharp object'I think if people are duped into believing that this procedure simply involves the removal of the clitoral hood or the labia minora (or both) they will logically deduce that it is the female equivalent of male circumcision, which is simply (and regrettably) not the case.
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Perhaps Lanky isn't familiar with statistics on HIV infection in Northern Africa, or it's modes of transmission.
According to UNAIDS' (the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS) 2006 Report on the global AIDS epidemic, there were 24.5 million Sub-Saharans living with HIV, including 2 million children.
I don't know how easily the HIV virus is spread with a the dirty razor that is often used for the FGM procedure, but tissue trauma and chronic bacterial infection makes it much easier for the HIV virus to infect a woman.
Many women undergo the procedure as adolescents, when they're going to be married off, as was the case with Fauziya Kasinga, mentioned above.
BTW, the analogy with cutting out the tongue was a good one.
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At one point, when it was clear that the U.S.'s justification for going to war Iraq was (at best) mistaken, Bush and his wife justified the invasion as a way to support the interests and aspirations of women. There may have been some truth to that in Afghanistan, but when you look at the U.S.'s record in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Sub-Saharan Africa, it's not hard to realize that Bush et al are completely full of crap.
You can argue that FGM is a cultural phenomenon and not a religious one, and that the Koran doesn't justify it (although there are Muslims who will dispute that), but what a lot of people get from a fundaments interpretation of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is that women are lesser beings than men are. It sets the zeitgeist so that, for some people, things like FGM is perfectly acceptable -- in fact, is good.
So much for religion as a moral force.
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I'm sure Lanky is fully well aware of the situation re AIDS/HIV in Africa, as most Westerners are; his point was that it is not helpful for Amnesty International to focus on the transmission of the HIV virus in particular when there are other, more likely diseases and infections which can be spread in this way and many health risks that do not involve STD’s at all. I agree there is some sense in his view, as it happens.As for your other points, they are worthy of comment, but I'll steer clear of responding to them if you dont mind, otherwise we'll end up knee-deep in another discussion involving either religion or the US-lead war in Iraq. I'd like to see this thread stay on topic as the subject interests me; I am dying for some proponent of FGM to come on here voicing ridiculous assertions, though I very much doubt the likelihood of that development!
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I am dying for some proponent of FGM to come on here...Don't hold your breath for that to happen. I'm only aware of the rare person from an area where FGM is practiced who ever posts to this site, and the person who does is more likely to be from an urban area, where FGM is not as common.You can analyze FGM philopophically as much as you like. It's not unusual in the evolution of human culture. Most everyone in the West agrees that it's bad. I'm sure we'd be analyzing throwing virgin girls into volcanoes if we were on line a few hundred years ago. The problem is not likely to be fixed any time soon internally, where it is practiced. The question is what forces can be brought to bear to change it?According to Bush, the West is at war with "radical Islam". Is abuse of women and children another front of the war?
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"Don't hold your breath for that to happen"Steve, you have the irritating habit of dissecting a person’s sentence and presenting only a portion of it in a deliberate attempt to take that persons words out of context; I have mentioned this to you before now. I trained in journalism Steve, which means I was actually educated in how to do this; in any case, I really don’t think it would take a third level education to spot that elementary manoeuvre.I would hardly likely ‘hold my breath’ for the arrival of an occurrence which, as I'd said, I would very much doubt the development of!"According to Bush, the West is at war with "radical Islam". Is abuse of women and children another front of the war?"You should add that question to any of the recent threads re religion or war. Or start a new thread in the exact area of this subject that interests you, if you like. I am not going to be drawn on the subject; I have no interest in discussing it, as I've told you.
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Man, you're reading way too much into that; no need to roll out your resume. There was no personal intent. Here it is sans metaphor: No one will post here in support of FGM.
If you don't want to discuss something, then you are free not to reply. Not every reply to you warrants a reply from you.
In my opinion, culture, religion, and politics can't be dissected out of the discussion, or we're just masturbating each other, saying, "Gee, isn't that terrible! How could they?"
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"no need to roll out your resume"Firstly, you haven’t got my resume, nor anything close to it; no more than I have yours."In my opinion, culture, religion, and politics can't be dissected out of the discussion, or we're just masturbating each other, saying, "Gee, isn't that terrible! How could they?"Of course culture, religion, and politics are integral elements of this discussion, but they are not all encompassing. I am sure the members of this site can discuss FGM, as they have done up till now, without simply reiterating "Gee, isn't that terrible! How could they?"“If you don't want to discuss something, then you are free not to reply. Not every reply to you warrants a reply from you”Lastly, I am aware that not every post to me is deserving of a response from me. (Acceptance of that may be beneficial to you in understanding why I have ignored particular posts of yours in the past)
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Firstly, you haven’t got my resume...I'm sure you're very well educated.> no more than I have yoursIt doesn't matter if I dropped out of the fourth grade or if I have two PhD's. Whatever I say stands and falls on it's own, and I'm not nearly as wily as you think I am. I was using no journalistic device.> why I have ignored particular posts of yours in the pastNo problem there.Given the restricted domain of the discussion, I'm not sure what else one can say on the subject.