California to ban spanking

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Quote:Oh and one last comment I noticed from above about animals in the wild. They even have a form of spanking when their young are being bad. I have seen on many nature channels where a lion would pop the cub on the head when it was being bad. Even seen a monkey where it took its child and spanked it on the butt. So yes spanking is something you can find in the wild as well.And many antlered animals will fight, often, until one is mortally wounded, when competing for a female. Most feline males will abandon the female after they impregnate her. Black widow spiders try to eat the male when they're done mating. Bonobos have sex with whomever they can, as often as they can?I think we can agree that animals, at least mammal, can treat one another with great cruelty. Are you suggesting that what animals do should be a template for our behavior? You don't drink out of the toilet or eat out of the trash, do you?It is not uncommon for make lions to kill cubs, as I mentioned earlier. The weak and the young are the last to eat, after a kill is brought down. And I don't know what species of monkeys you were watching spanking their young, but many monkey societies are extremely violent. As bad as it may be in your neck of Ohio, I guarantee that you wouldn't want to trade places.Funny, I thought creatures that didn't believe in God would be less likely to spank. Silly me....silly preconceived notions.

Quote:And many antlered animals will fight, often, until one is mortally wounded, when competing for a female. Most feline males will abandon the female after they impregnate her. Black widow spiders try to eat the male when they're done mating. Bonobos have sex with whomever they can, as often as they can? What the hell does this have to do with "spanking"?? Why do you have to broaden the scope like this all the time? It's ridiculous.

Did you see the post to which I replied? The quote box? The name on the quote box? Or did you just react?

The poster to whom I responded is justifying spanking based on observations of animal behavior. My point is that it doesn't make much sense to base human behavior on observed animal behavior, whether or not spanking is the issue.

Now this time, stop and think before reacting.

This kind of leads into the discussion of how kids sometimes get spanked, by parents reacting before thinking, but I won't go there....

Well, I have to agree with Angel. I think some parents need to be taught how to be better parents. I for one am not perfect, but I think I am a good mom.I can count on one hand how many times I have spanked my oldest. He is 10. One time in particular he had talked back to my grandmother and was quite disrespectful. I am sorry, but I will not stand for my child being disrespectful to anyone, let alone his great grandmother. I have not spanked my youngest child yet. He is 3. I have not had any reason to. With him, I try to redirect him to another task. For example, when he is trying to drink out of the dog bowl, (he likes to pretend to be a dog) I will redirect him to reading his favorite Curious George book. Or to throwing the ball to the dog etc. So far, this is working. I do not enjoy spanking my kids, and I take offense to people that think I get off on it or something. I am simply trying to raise my kids and have them turn out to be decent members of society. I find it really annoying that someone would try to tell me how to discipline my child, especially if they do not have kids of thier own. I was spanked twice when I was young. And I definately deserved it. But I love my grandparents (they raised me) and deeply respect them to this day. And for one thing, I never would have acted the way some of these kids act these days.

Yes.. thank you Steve I did see the quote box. No one said that humans do or should base their action on animal behavior. The comment was that even in teh animal kingdom, there is a form of discipline.You on the other hand, for the sake of arguing, had to expand the scope to include survival of the fittest, death matches etc... and question the comment with this absurdity.Direct your scolding towards someone else or your own kids.

I do not enjoy spanking my kids, and I take offense to people that think I get off on it or something.I'm not sure who is saying that. That would certainly be a pathology.The problem is that parents sometimes react in anger, and under those conditions they're not in the best frame of mind to judge where or how hard to hit. Sometimes a parent just wants the kid to shut up.Not too long ago I saw a frustrated-looking mom in the mall, with what were presumably her kids, and she hit whacked the boy in the head with her hand. I don't recall exactly what he was doing, but whatever it was, it wasn't endangering anyone's life or limb.Many parents say that spanking is just a fine thing, because they would never do it inappropriately. Well, good for you guys. But if everyone were so perfect, then we wouldn't need any laws at all, and social workers could find another career.

Quote:No one said that humans do or should base their action on animal behavior. The comment was that even in teh animal kingdom, there is a form of discipline.That is bullshit. The comment was that, even in the animal kingodom, corporal punishment (spanking) is used for discipline. And anyway, what are the implications of saying that in a thread about a law that would ban spanking humans of a certain age?The subject of this thread is not whether kids should be disciplined, but whether they should be spanked. What animals do is irrelevant.Maybe you should go trace back the animal discussion (in which Ineligible asked whether animals show cruelty to one another).I hope you stop and reason more than this before you decide to use corporal punishment on your own kids.

Quote:I hope you stop and reason more than this before you decide to use corporal punishment on your own kids.He never said he was going to use corporal punishment on his kids. See, this is the problem when we have discussions in which you are involved. You put words into people's mouths and you call them unable to reason when they get upset with you for it. It's not an efficient way to discuss something. I've watched you do it several times in this thread to other members and it's really discouraging coming from an intelligent man like yourself.

Again Babe, this isn't to you. You are or were just the last name on the list, this is to the discussion in general. Maybe this will have nothing to do with the discussion, I don't know.

I find this whole thing fascinating, myself coming from a culture that believes or believed that there was no greater personal shortcoming or evil than to strike a child in any form or for any reason.

What seems to be missing from the discussion, at least to me via my experience growing up, is any dialogue about garnering the respect of the child. Without respect your a doormat and end up in the very situation that Eddie describe taking place at his work.

If your going to be a doormat do you think spanking has any real longterm effect? Furthermore wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on what is wrong in the parent child relationship? Why a lack of respect exists or exists in such a limited amount that it has little effect? I don't know, it just seems that way to me.

Is respect for the parent something you believe is inherit and can be lost or is it something that must be gained?

What does spanking do to respect? Does it build it or does it destroy it?

If it you believe it builds respect for a parent, on what grounds do you believe that respect is being built? It would seem to me to be fear. If that's the case, while it may be effective, do you believe it's healthy for the parent child relationship in the long run?

I don't know the answers. I know what I think but I fully admit that those beliefs are based on my growing up and that those beliefs have never been tested by having children of my own.

Spanking is something I just really don't understand. When I was a kid I had the greatest respect for mom and granny and, for that matter, all my elders in general. I don't know exactly how they instilled that in me but I think it was through the respect they showed me as an individual, all be it an immature one with limited understandings. As I said, I really don't know how they did it.

I don't think respect is a big enough word for what I felt and feel for them. My respect for those people was so great that my biggest fear was letting them down and thus my generally good behavior. To go to the dances or, hell, anywhere and have those old ladies and old men look at you with that look of disappointment, was and is just devastating.

I think even more than that, the motivation was there for good behavior because I wanted them to be proud of me and smile when they saw me and acknowledge that I was good person. Acknowledge that I was someone that could possibly one day be some one worth looking too. That was all the motivation for good behavior I needed, that is still my prime motivation today. I still strive to make those old people proud of me, even though most of them are now long dead.

I remember the greatest honor that was ever instilled in me was at the dance one Sunday when this old man called me out and went on to the crowd about what a good boy I was and what good family I come from and how they helped him when he didn't deserve it and he was crying the entire time and encouraging me to live up to example of my elders and then he give me a blanket and some money to put on the drum. That single act in my young childhood, charred into my early memories, did more to keep me on the right track than anything because I respected them old people and always thought my greatest failing could be to let them down.

The thing is, this wasn't just the way with me. It was common to my and older generations in households where tradition and participation in cultural events still held sway. That was the way everybody did it, save the few that had already given up their traditional beliefs and values. Those that knew that way and lived that way always had good kids. Those that tried to be somebody else and live another mans way often had troubled families.

I think it was good way, maybe a better way but alas the people are moving away and forgetting their elders and their ways. It makes me sad.

You wouldn't happen to have chimed in because, this time, you disagree with my position? Honestly, did you think the provocative comment about the animal discussion made any sense?OK sdp, answer CBW's question: have you spanked your kids? You surely have justified it.

Yes Steve. You can quit stomping your feet now.Unfortunately, you always take observations to the extreme. But that's OK. We all see it except you yourself and we understand.

I chimed in yesterday. I could care less what your position is. I just think you're taking this thing overboard. You're also implying that the people on here who spank their kids have an inferior way of discipling their kids and that they have bad parenting skills.You're entitled to have your opinions, but when you start offending others by cramping their parenting styles, it gets the discussion no where.

I am a spanking parent. I don’t do it often. One child it worked on, and the other it didn’t. (I think the little one liked it actually..lol) At one year old, my oldest was insistent on running out into the road. I was in a rental, and newly divorced on very little income. The house I was renting didn’t have a fenced yard, and the landlord wouldn’t allow it. That one year old of mine did get a spanking. Guess what, she stayed out of the road after that. Letting her get hurt by a car, or shunning her in this instance were not realistic natural consequences. I suppose I could have just put her on a leash eh? Here it isn’t even legal to tie a dog for more than 3 hrs. I SUPPOSE I could have spent our outside time exhaustively bringing her back into the yard. But through that ONE spanking, she decided it was more fun to play inside the yard than risk getting hurt.This same kid, during the same time period was learning that the furnace was hot...hmm you know, she had to touch that thing three times to get it. Interesting that mom swatting her butt left a faster impression than that!There are times that the natural consequences are either too dangerous, or just impractical…that is when the spankings are called for.More than a quick, non bruising swat is definitely uncalled for.

Your post was obviously motivated by my post in the other spanking thread.

You must have me confused with the secret police. I'm not cramping anyone's behavior, whether it's their parenting style or anything else.

But it would be a good idea if people would stop and think about what they are doing. There are a lot of things that seem fine and acceptable at one point, but don't seem very good in retrospect.

At some points in history, in some places, children were treated as servants and slaves. I'm sure it seemed just fine to everyone at the time.

I will give you the fact that some parents react in anger. Parents are also human and make mistakes. Quote: I don't recall exactly what he was doing, but whatever it was, it wasn't endangering anyone's life or limb. That's crazy. If a child were to tell his mother to F*** off, that wouldn't be endangering anyone's life, but it is certainly uncalled for. Do you think the child would respect her and not say it again if the mother would say "Now Johnny, it's not nice to talk to me that way."? I understand what works for me, may not work for someone else. But I don't think parents like me should be lumped into a group with parents that abuse thier kids.

In the case I mentioned, I was watching the mom and kids before she hit the boy. He wasn't doing what she wanted, but he wasn't telling anyone to fuck off. I think that situation could have been handled better.I hope the boy didn't get the idea that a slap to the head is a good idea, and do it to his sister later that day.Contrary to the way some people are interpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying that parents who spank their kids are abusers, the way a child beater clearly is. I'm just saying that it would be good if people would stop and think about what they are doing, rather than blindly going through life, doing things, because that's what their parents did, and that's how it was always done.There are alternatives to spanking that people should think about, and maybe try. If it doesn't work, it's not the end of the world. The parent can always revert to his usual behavior.What works for you may work, but that does not mean that it's the best way. It may be, but it's still worth thinking about.

The poster to whom I responded is justifying spanking based on observations of animal behaviorThat is NOT what I said, and you know it. Again you change things up to cause an argument.My point was just as sdp stated was that even in the animal kingdom; there is a form of discipline. Which is a much different statement than what you like to think I was saying.As for the monkeys, I couldn't even tell you what kind of monkeys they were other than they were brown (I think lol). Regardless it was on a nature show on Discovery. It's been a couple years since I watched the show so I don't remember the full details, but the child-monkey was being bad and the mother took the child and spanked him. Funny part was that the spanking was a simple swat on the butt like I was talking about before.Oh, and I don’t believe I ever used “corporal punishment” anywhere in any of my posts. If you are going to quote me about anything make sure you have your facts right.Problem is your whole view on Spanking is skewed because of how you were raised. You were never giving spankings you were simply abused. So in your mind, you connect being spanked as being abused. Within psychology that makes complete sense. But in reality, there is a BIG different between spanking as a form of discipline and beating a child.If I remember this correctly (took these classes YEARS ago) there two forms of reinforcement when it comes to discipline. Positive reinforcement: Where you give praise to the child for acts they do that are positive. Also using the words thank you, good job etc. Tell a child for no reason that a good act they did was good and that you “appreciated that act” is a form of Positive Reinforcement.Negative Reinforcement: Giving a child a punishment for negative actions. Could consist of time outs, taking away privileges, and in some cases spanking. With Negative Reinforcement it lets the child know what they did was unacceptable and if they do the action again there will be consequences. This helps to regulate boundaries for the child, and to know right from wrong. Since no child is the same as another, the parent will need to figure out which form of Negative Reinforcement is going to work best for the child.I think for a proper upbringing of a child there need to be a correct balance of Positive and Negative Reinforcement. When you start lacking in one or the other is when a child will start misbehaving and acting out.

The poster to whom I responded is justifying spanking based on observations of animal behaviorQuote:That is NOT what I said, and you know it. Again you change things up to cause an argument.My point was just as sdp stated was that even in the animal kingdom; there is a form of discipline. Which is a much different statement than what you like to think I was saying.Don't assume you know what my motivations are until you get half a clue.So in the animal kingdom, there's a form of discipline. And so...what's your point? You specifically cited corporal forms of discipline. What conclusion would a reasonable person arrive at when seeing what you wrote?Quote:but the child-monkey was being bad and the mother took the child and spanked him. Funny part was that the spanking was a simple swat on the butt like I was talking about before.Wait a minute, I thought you were talking about "discipline", not spanking.Quote:Oh, and I don’t believe I ever used “corporal punishment” anywhere in any of my posts. If you are going to quote me about anything make sure you have your facts right.Do you have any idea what "corporal punishment" means? He're's the Random House Dictionary's second definintion, as cited by dictionary.com:Quote:physical punishment, as spanking, inflicted on a child by an adult in authority.Quote:Problem is your whole view on Spanking is skewed because of how you were raised. You were never giving spankings you were simply abused. So in your mind, you connect being spanked as being abused. Within psychology that makes complete sense. But in reality, there is a BIG different between spanking as a form of discipline and beating a child.Take off your amateur psychologist hat and give it rest. You know as much about the subject as my left testicle. Don't flatter yourself because you took a seminar.While you're at it, explain why some people who were abusers become beaters themselves. I can tell you one thing: as an adult, I've never hit a child, although there were times I've certainly been tempted. I've been in a position where I had to deal with two children of divorced parents, and it wasn't always easy, but somehow it all worked out. As far as I know, neither kid was hit, and both have turned out great.Quote:If I remember this correctly (took these classes YEARS ago) there two forms of reinforcement when it comes to discipline.Yes, I'm sure you did take them years ago, professor.Quote:Positive reinforcement: Where you give praise to the child for acts they do that are positive. Also using the words thank you, good job etc. Tell a child for no reason that a good act they did was good and that you “appreciated that act” is a form of Positive Reinforcement.Negative Reinforcement: Giving a child a punishment for negative actions. Could consist of time outs, taking away privileges, and in some cases spanking. With Negative Reinforcement it lets the child know what they did was unacceptable and if they do the action again there will be consequences. This helps to regulate boundaries for the child, and to know right from wrong. Since no child is the same as another, the parent will need to figure out which form of Negative Reinforcement is going to work best for the child.I think for a proper upbringing of a child there need to be a correct balance of Positive and Negative Reinforcement. When you start lacking in one or the other is when a child will start misbehaving and acting out.You have children? No? According to you, that should disqualify you from having an opinion. Anyone who has a casual familiarity with behavioral psychology knows what positive and negative reinforcement is.Since you think that animals have something to teach us, I suggest that look into how animal trainers get their animals to perform, and why they don't use negative reinforcement.Why don't you look into how guide dogs are trained. Do you think they're spanked during training?The big problem I have here is that people will often default to spanking, and not even consider that there might be another way to handle a situation. They know what they've learned from their parents, and they think think since they've turned out so wonderfully, having been spanked, so that's the way to go.There is little reflection, introspection, or research.Another point I'm making, which speaks to the law that this thread is supposed to be about, is that there are a lot of parents who don't know where to draw the line while spanking. What should we do about that?In my opinion, violence generally leads to more violence. If spanking is taken too far, kids get the idea that hitting others is a good way to deal with problems.American culture is very violent as it is. Maybe we should think about that.

Again... Yawn GO pick your fights else where because all you look like is a pathetic little man who has nothing better to do with his time than pick debated over the internet.Instead of trying to tell everyone else they have issues, perhaps you need to put down you pointed finger and take a real hard look at yourself.Now stop stomping your feet, grow up and get a life. Okay "dude"?

Quote:Take off your amateur psychologist hat and give it rest. LOL...Didn't starfish tell you the same thing? Pot? Kettle?