The Big Problem

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This is not a religious debate, but it is my view on why all religious debates seem to blow-up.The biggest problem with all of these debates is that people do not know the other faiths as well as they think. One of the most common things said is "Well, Chrisitans(or Jews, or Muslims, or Atheists) think that they know everything!" Or that they have the answer for everything.Its a rediculous claim made by some people on all sides, I doubt there are more than a handfull of crazy nuts on this planet who believe that they know everything! The main point of these arguments are not to prove that gods do or do not exist, its impossible to know. Everything is just how people interperate the evidence. The Bible is a common piece of evidence used, some people follow it because they believe that it was inspired by God, some people follow it because they believe that it is the word of God and some people dismiss it because it was written by men no different than any of us.

I can agree with you completely Bob

I'm sorry but the argument on both sides don't carry equal weight, any more than science and faith are on equal footing.Some religious people think they have the answers to the big questions, based on ancient writings. They think they know the provenance of the universe, the provenance of mankind, and the meaning of existence -- based on ancient writings. They pooh-pooh science, something they often have no understanding of.A non-religious person does not assume he just "knows" those things, or he's not a non-religious person. Information accrues, and we get closer to the truth, but we know we'll never really understand it all. We can live with that.The fact that religions contradict one another, each with its own mythology, is telling. They can't all be right. Either one of them is, or none of them are. What does it mean that Jews respect Christians' beliefs, and Christians respect Jews beliefs? Does each respect the right of the other to be wrong?Arguing about scripture is really just a pointless game. The interesting question is what drives people toward religious faith. What we think is a product of the biochemistry of the brain. There must be some circuit in the brain that causes faith. Why is it there? And if it is there, then why are there skeptics?See this article from last Sunday's New York TImes Magazine: Darwin's God. It's a long, but very interesting article about the evolution of religious faith in humans, from an anthropological and biological perspective. At the end of the day, each religion is as valid as the next. No religion based on faith is logically valid. (Ntro, I'm not using valid to mean "good"; it has a specific meaning in logic.) That there is a pantheon of gods with Zeus at the top, or that trees contain human spirits, make every bit as much sense as Chrisitan, Jewish, or Islamic beliefs.

How about the Koran or Quran, or what the hell ever it is ?istn it the word of god?Every faction belives they are right and has the word of god. Look at even the basic bible, how many difernt versions are there? how much has been lost in time and translation ?ever play that game in school where the teacher tells the first kid a secret, that kid tells it to the one next to them and so on an so forth till it gets to teh last kid who says it out loud and it has NOTHING to do with the original comment?How much of what is there is not the same as it was when it was written?Even at thta how much was changed between each version and what version is right?I see it myself as a tool to control the masses.Originally the catholics kept it in latin, only the priests were allowed to understand it and read it and tell teh people what it meant, ti was forbidden to learn latin and read it for yourself. I dont pretend to understand it all in all the faiths, and I dont give a rats ass about it. What I do care about is people using it to legislate the rules that govern my life.Abortion, drinking, moral conduct.I think we can all agree on the do not steal or kill. Those are really the only pertinant references in teh 10 commandments.some parents do nto deserve to be honored, what about the ones that drown the kids in the tub ? do they deserve to be fucking honored? as for coveting the shit next door and keeping up with the jones's ? it stimulates the econemy, it puts people to work to make and buy the shit the jones's got, its good it makes money and lets people buy food to feed thier family.whats the rest of the bullshit ? no other gods before me ? fuck you, I have NO gods. no golden idols ?Gold is my idol, I spnet some time seeking it out and to date havent found jack shit, some understand but not enough to cover my equipment or gas for the trips. and those seven deadly sins, I think Warren Zevon said it best when he said:"I'm very well aquainted with the seven deadly sins I keep a busy schedule trying to fit them in I'm proud to be a glutton, and I don't have time for sloth I'm greedy, and I'm angry, and I don't care who I cross"Actually I think the entire thing is relevant to this convo so.... Quote:I started as an altar boy, working at the church Learning all my holy moves, doing some research Which led me to a cash box, labeled "Children's Fund" I'd leave the change, and tuck the bills inside my cummerbundI got a part-time job at my father's carpet store Laying tackless stripping, and housewives by the score I loaded up their furniture, and took it to Spokane And auctioned off every last naugahyde divanI'm very well aquainted with the seven deadly sins I keep a busy schedule trying to fit them in I'm proud to be a glutton, and I don't have time for sloth I'm greedy, and I'm angry, and I don't care who I crossI'm Mr. Bad Example, intruder in the dirt I like to have a good time, and I don't care who gets hurt I'm Mr. Bad Example, take a look at me I'll live to be a hundred, and go down in infamyOf course I went to law school and took a law degree And counseled all my clients to plead insanity Then worked in hair replacement, swindling the bald Where very few are chosen, and fewer still are calledThen on to Monte Carlo to play chemin de fer I threw away the fortune I made transplanting hair I put my last few francs down on a prostitute Who took me up to her room to perform the flag saluteWhereupon I stole her passport and her wig And headed for the airport and the midnight flight, you dig? And fourteen hours later I was down in Adelaide Looking through the want ads sipping Fosters in the shadeI opened up an agency somewhere down the line To hire aboriginals to work the opal mines But I attached their wages and took a whopping cut And whisked away their workman's comp and pauperized the lotI'm Mr. Bad Example, intruder in the dirt I like to have a good time, and I don't care who gets hurtI'm Mr. Bad Example, take a look at me I'll live to be a hundred and go down in infamyI bought a first class ticket on Malaysian AirAnd landed in Sri Lanka none the worse for wear I'm thinking of retiring from all my dirty deals I'll see you in the next life, wake me up for meals its all a tool of power and controlanyone can pray to who and what they want and Ill leave em alone so long as they stay the fuck out of my affairs and stop trying to legislate the bullshit that affects me.Look at Bush, he speaks to god and look where that got our country, Right into the fucking shitter, its only waiting to be flushed.

Religion is about beleif, I'm a christian and I need no science proof to tell me whether or not there is a god, I beleive there is, how could life be so beautiful without god. We beleive the answers given to us based on Jeus's teachings, and I will stick with them.

it's impossible to prove most religions if not all scientifically. it's based on faith alone

I guess the billions of non-Chiristians see no beauty.> I need no science proof to tell me whether or not there is a god, I beleive there isScience has nothing at all to say about the existance of God, gods, or the supernatural. I'm sure you believe there is. Have you ever really wondered why you do, though? When you were a little kid and you believed in God, I'm sure you didn't ponder the beauty of the world, and its dependence on the existence of God (an idea that completely eludes me). It's a sort of reasoning that you evolved into, in an attempt to rationalize the irrational.There is good and increasing evidence that there is circuitry in the brain that drives supernatural beliefs. It just feels natural.Jesus taught that he was a supernatural god-like entity, and you had better believe in him, or you're doomed to eternal damnation. Sounds pretty cool, but I don't know why or how belief in Jesus and God is any different from belief in Vishnu or the Earth Mother or Zeus.Do you really think you would be a Christian if you were born to Islamic parents in Syria, or is it possible that your particular faith is rooted in an accident of birth? There are mirror images of you all over the Middle East, but they fill in the blanks with "Mohammad" rather than "Jesus".

Quote:I need no science proof to tell me whether or not there is a god, I beleive there isI don't need science proof to explain my beliefs either. I just use logic and common sense

. . .> it's impossible to prove most religions if not all scientifically. it's based on faith aloneIf religion implies belief in the supernatural and/or supernatural beings, then I certainly agree.By the way there's a Christian youth ministry, rooted in the usual American right-wing intolerance and hatred, meeting in San Francisco: A Youth Ministry Some Call Antigay Tests Tolerance (NYT)Quote:Tasha White, 18, attended the event last year and said it had opened her eyes to “a culture leading us into brokenness.”. . .Ms. White added that she did not think there was anything antigay about the event, though she believes gay people are “misguided.”Mr. Luce echoed that sentiment, saying his group loves gay people, but does firmly believe their sexuality is sinful.“We see homosexuality like a lot of other things that do harm to us, like lying, or cheating, or stealing,” he said, adding that he said he had seen studies suggesting that many gay people are depressed or unhappy. “And it’s not very loving to leave them in that state and not show them another way.”. . .Ron Luce is the founder of Teen Mania, the Texas-based ministry that sponsors and promotes BattleCry.

Quote:“We see homosexuality like a lot of other things that do harm to us, like lying, or cheating, or stealing,” he said, adding that he said he had seen studies suggesting that many gay people are depressed or unhappy. “And it’s not very loving to leave them in that state and not show them another way.”Strange. I don't see how two people who love each other could be compared to stealing, lying or cheating. And I want to see those studies that say many gay people are depressed and unhappy. I wouldn't blame them for feeling that way considering we live in a white, heterosexual, capitalist, Western, individualistic-centered society that discourages anything that goes against popular beliefs and values.

The religious folks want to love them to death, loving the sinner and hating the sin.Those guys condemn homosexuality while eating shellfish and wearing polyester/cotton blend clothing, and shaving their sideburns. I wish instead they'd focus their great energy on something more constructive, like bathing street people.

Quote:Science has nothing at all to say about the existance of God, gods, or the supernatural. I'm sure you believe there is. Have you ever really wondered why you do, though? An interesting question to say the least. I have been pondering about this question for some time now and everyday I learn something new.Why do people believe?Believe - To have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.My thoery is this. It is human nature to take anything intangible to the mind and make it tangible.It seems most people are unsatisfied with simply not knowing. Humans have drive to know things, to know answers. Instead of being taught, "It's okay to not know" it is often, "You need to find out" instead. School is an easy example for this.How did the Earth come to exist? How did people come to exist? How did the Universe come to exist? How big is the Universe? Does the Universe continue expanding? Does the Universe have a boundary? What is a black hole?Perhaps, these are questions that we are not designed to know. Why MUST we know them?People are indeed trapped by the way our minds are trained to think. While we argue amongst each other about the questions that cannot be answered (because isn't it, afterall, speculation) we do things that endanger our very existence.I was thinking about this the other night; let's say any animal multiplied and populated the Earth as densely as Humans have, what would happen to the world? Don't you think everything would then become unbalanced? What would happen? Perhaps a disease will break out and remedy the problem.Here is the BIG PROBLEM. Unlike any other animal on Earth, humans are the number one predator to all things. Even humans are predators to other humans. As the human population increases, the population of everything else seems to diminish.If I were to see all in a detached 3rd person view, I would really feel sorry for all creatures of the Earth falling victim to the humans that inhabit it.I do have hope for us. I know many of the things I do helps everyday. I wish I could contribute more.

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How did the Earth come to exist? How did people come to exist? How did the Universe come to exist? How big is the Universe? Does the Universe continue expanding? Does the Universe have a boundary? What is a black hole?

Perhaps, these are questions that we are not designed to know. Why MUST we know them?

How can fire be created? What shape would be most useful to transport large quantities of substances? How can a disease be cured?

Are these also questions that we are not designed to know? Because there was a time when we didn't know, and our species has thrived because these questions were answered.

The more that we know, the more that we can help ourselves. Granted, people are flawed and some information is used negatively, but people should focus more on stopping the bad side, rather than trying to get rid of the whole thing.

Fire kills, everybody knows this. But fire makes our food safe to eat and it keeps us warm, which is very important for a species with nothing but a layer of skin protecting them.

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Here is the BIG PROBLEM. Unlike any other animal on Earth, humans are the number one predator to all things. Even humans are predators to other humans. As the human population increases, the population of everything else seems to diminish.

If I were to see all in a detached 3rd person view, I would really feel sorry for all creatures of the Earth falling victim to the humans that inhabit it.

I have to agree that with our species' current way of thinking, we are the largest and most destructive parasites on the planet.

You should read the New York Times Magazine article I pointed to. It's long, but worthwhile.Aside from what you said, which are effects of our biology and culture, there in they underlying question of why we seem to be biologically wired to have religious faith. As brains are studied in more detail using tools such as fMRI, researchers can find the nerual pathways that cause the effect of "being really sure", or of the extatic feeling a person can get while in the throes of a religious ritual.Also, people don't just need to know; they also need to classify and organize. Things need to fit into categories and systems, or they take more mental work to deal with, which is not the best use of brain resources when trying to survive in the wild.We have come to evolve to our present state for a reason. Either having religious faith (or something like it) helped humans to survive in the past, or religious faith is an accidental (but not disadvantageous) accidental side effect of some other evolved mental process.Quote:Here is the BIG PROBLEM. Unlike any other animal on Earth, humans are the number one predator to all things. Even humans are predators to other humans. As the human population increases, the population of everything else seems to diminish.The problem is not so much that we're literally predatory; even if all humans were vegetarians, there would be practically as much stress on the planet. The fact that we kill each other is not a problem for the flora and fauna; it may be a good thing. The side effects of domestic animal farming can be locally serious, and depletion of the oceans is also a big problem, but the main problem for the Earth is man's intelligence. It gives him the power to design things that can destroy the surface of the planet. Humans, behavioral economists have shown, do not always do what's in their best interest (either for their society or for themselves); humans are irrational creatures.

Quote:How can fire be created? What shape would be most useful to transport large quantities of substances? How can a disease be cured?Are these also questions that we are not designed to know? Because there was a time when we didn't know, and our species has thrived because these questions were answered.These are questions that we are designed to know because it's comprehensible within the capability of our brain.Have you ever taken astronomy?Quote:The more that we know, the more that we can help ourselves. Granted, people are flawed and some information is used negatively, but people should focus more on stopping the bad side, rather than trying to get rid of the whole thing.Fire kills, everybody knows this. But fire makes our food safe to eat and it keeps us warm, which is very important for a species with nothing but a layer of skin protecting them. Perhaps you have the wrong idea of what I am saying here. You seem to think I am speaking out against knowledge.Knowledge is a great thing and we should use it for the better of all. To not learn is to be ignorant.

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The problem is not so much that we're literally predatory; even if all humans were vegetarians, there would be practically as much stress on the planet. The fact that we kill each other is not a problem for the flora and fauna; it may be a good thing. The side effects of domestic animal farming can be locally serious, and depletion of the oceans is also a big problem

I can't think of a specie that is more predatory than Humans. When I use the word predatory, I'm refering to the depletion of things. In this sense, we are a predator to the plants, animals (including human as being animal), and even oxygen.

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but the main problem for the Earth is man's intelligence. It gives him the power to design things that can destroy the surface of the planet. Humans, behavioral economists have shown, do not always do what's in their best interest (either for their society or for themselves); humans are irrational creatures.

Yes, this is what I was trying to explain that perhaps bob misunderstood me on.

I avoid the word intelligence for a reason. Many of the things we do is, as you put it, irrational. In this way, I don't find that it is good judgement and therefore I wouldn't call it intelligent. I prefer to use knowledge. At the moment, I can't find the words to explain why. Being a relatively bright individual, I'm sure you're able to figure that one out though Steve.

By "intelligence", you mean wisdom. I used the more technical meaning of the word.I also understood the word "predatory" in the sense of attacking other species (as well as ourselves), but you mean something more akin to "destructive".By "design", I assume that you don't necessarily mean a design by an intelligent force, although you may or may not exclude the possibility.That concludes today's vocabulary discussion.

Quote:How did the Earth come to exist? How did people come to exist? How did the Universe come to exist? How big is the Universe? Does the Universe continue expanding? Does the Universe have a boundary? What is a black hole?Perhaps, these are questions that we are not designed to know. Why MUST we know them? I'd like to try and say this in a different way.Perhaps we are desgined to know the answers to these questions, perhaps we are not. This is why it is a theory.This is what I think. At this current time, people do not have the resources to absolutley know the answer to these questions. Perhaps one of these days we will. I'm open to possibilities.So let's say there is a way to know the answer to how big the universe really is. I'm just going to throw some sci-fi things out there right now. Our human race evolves into something much like StarTrek. We keep traveling until we reach the end of the universe (if there is in fact an end). Then we would have an idea of how big the universe is. Maybe we'll even KNOW how big the universe is in measurement.That's a tremendous goal that lies far beyond tomorrow. To walk a mile, we must take the first step. If we plan on making it to the day that we can answer some of the questions I've asked, we need to change the way we spend our energies.Instead of trying to answer the questions that lie beyond tomorrow, we must first answer the questions of today.Planet Earth is what sustains human life. And yet, we continue to abuse and neglect the planet that keeps us alive.To any Christians that are reading. I have a question to ask you. If people succeed in killing planet Earth before Jesus makes his 2nd coming, what do you think will happen?

lol.

My idea of truth may not be your idea of truth.

My idea of false may not be your idea of false.

My idea of right may not be your idea of right.

My idea of wrong may not be your idea of wrong.

What is right, what is wrong, what is true, what is false?

Same concept, methinks. :grin:

EDIT: And maybe viruslike would have been a better word than predatory or destructive.

Well, surely noone can know everything. Even some of the things we know could be false. Religions exist everywhere and have always existed. These questions mentioned above, they can't be answered yet.I don't know how the universe came to life, and I couldn't care less. Because I 'm alive.