Gay ?

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Quote:I had a gay classmate (that I knew of) in college... I didn't shun him.I'm not agreeing with the gay-hater claims, but if you want to defend yourself you might want to pick a better argument than the "I'm not a racist, one of my best friends is black" arguments.

I'm not trying to... I'm just trying to say that I can have the opinion that I don't feel homosexuality is right even though it occurs throughout the animal kingdom AND that that opinion does not automatically make me a gay-hater.

Originally Posted By: sdpI'm not trying to... I'm just trying to say that I can have the opinion that I don't feel homosexuality is right even though it occurs throughout the animal kingdom AND that that opinion does not automatically make me a gay-hater. Hi sdp!! I have no choice but to absolutely agree with you. Otherwise - I'd be a hypocrite. If it is my desire [and it is] for other people to accept my opinions and not brand me as one thing or another - then I have to be willing to accept their opinions and not brand them as one thing or another. Besides - I LOVE questions and openly shared thoughts and feelings AND do so regardless of whether or not those questions, etc., support my point of view. In fact - I appreciate opposing points of view more than one's that agree with me. For it is what opposes you that shapes you. Have a great day!!GREAT BIG HUGCraig!!

You know, I can respect someone who's upfront about their opinions. Even if I don't agree with it, I can't help but to respect you and your opinions. I hate people who hide how they truly feel about things.

Quote:It's just that studies like this that show homosexuality occuring in nature, seem to imply/say "Well you better like it and accept it because it's natural". Again, what is the purpose of it. Why do I have to like it?I don't think I read that between any of the lines.There always seems like there's a hook in your statements though... "I don't mind... it's fucking sick and wrong but I don't mind"But yes, you are absoluetly right, it's human to ask why and we should never ever stop. THAT is what really separates us from the animals. Of course, seeking to understand is what separates the enlightened from the ignorant

For me sdp I never thought of you as a gay-hater. You have always treated me good and with respect and I have always respected you for being honest with me. I think a question like "What’s the point of homosexuality?” it hard to explain or even provide a real answer too because so little is even know to why someone is homosexual. Granted there are a lot of research which points directly to it being biological and not environmental. But to answer why?? Maybe there is no real answer to why some people are homosexual, could simply be a genetic fluke. But one thing we know for sure is homosexuality is not something new and it’s been around since the beginning of time and it’s found in over 1500 species of animals. When it comes to natural, being homosexual and loving another man is natural to me. Just as a fish living in water is natural to them but not natural to humans. Natural is very different from person to person or even species to species. It simple differences that makes us humans and I don’t see homosexuality being such a huge difference when all we are talking about is the gender of the person we ‘mate’ with.

It's also natural for some animals to eat their partner after mating and for many of them to eat their own young. So I suppose that supports those actions in us too? It's partly that we, as humans, don't always do what may come naturally to us that makes us different from the animals.As for morals being subjective, it's the fact that they're not subjective that makes them morals at all.

Originally Posted By: thorIt's also natural for some animals to eat their partner after mating and for many of them to eat their own young. So I suppose that supports those actions in us too? Lordie leave it to you to make such calls. First off in nature, like the praying mantis, the female decapitates the male during reproduction. That is not something we share with this species, but that is how that species has done reproduction for as long as we have been studying them. Matter of fact it has no bearing on the subject. The point is that homosexuality is something that is shared between many species and yet there have been no detrimental effects on their species because of homosexuality. If anything the homosexuals of the species take in the rearing of young in support of their species… and gee the young turn out just fine and find their place among the wild And as for morals… wish people would leave them out of this discussion for once because again it has no bearing.

Originally Posted By: NtroducingMyselfThat is not something we share with this species, but that is how that species has done reproduction for as long as we have been studying them. Matter of fact it has no bearing on the subject. The point is that homosexuality is something that is shared between many species and yet there have been no detrimental effects on their species because of homosexuality.If what animals do has no bearing on the subject, why stress what they do in support of homosexuality?My point was only that the activities of animals may be an indicator of some things that might also occur in humans...but that in no way validates anything humans actually choose to do, unless you want to accept everything animals do as valid human activities as well. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Quote:If what animals do has no bearing on the subject, why stress what they do in support of homosexuality? You don't grasp it do you?? The point is homosexuality is something that is shared with over 1500 species on earth and yet those species don't have any detrimental effects not to mention it seems very accepted. Seems animals, that people like to think of as lesser life forms, are more civilized than we humans. Quote:but that in no way validates anything humans actually choose to do, unless you want to accept everything animals do as valid human activities as well. First off I never chose my sexuality, though you like to keep trying to say homosexuals do. But when did you choose to be straight? When did you wake up and go "Gee I am going to be straight"?? You never chose to be straight, it’s part of who you are just like being homosexual it part of who I am. If sexuality was all about choice do you really think people would pick a lifestyle in which they would be ridiculed, and make to feel like less of a human being? Seriously…As for everything else you are taking things on a VERY broad spectrum. You cannot compare every part of an animal life to another animal life; it's impossible because we all have different functions to survive. Fish need to swim, birds need to fly etc etc. BUT one thing many species have in common is sexuality. Because we have this in common it can be compared. So it has nothing to do with wanting my cake and eating it too... it's about using common sense and tying relative aspects of other species together to help understand complex subjects like sexuality.

...and all animals need to eat. I'd say that's even more basically universal than sex, since many animals have no gender. So, we're back to the example many animals provide for us of eating their young. So should this also be acceptable for us since animals do it?My only point is that "it's natural...animals do it" does not qualify as a basis for validation of what humans do.

Thor this is typical you, circles, circles, and more circles. Maybe I should ask what you didn't understand from my last post perhaps that will help..??? maybe?? I'd like to reiterate my last paragraph:

"As for everything else you are taking things on a VERY broad spectrum. You cannot compare every part of an animal life to another animal life; it's impossible because we all have different functions to survive. Fish need to swim, birds need to fly etc etc. BUT one thing many species have in common is sexuality. Because we have this in common it can be compared. So it has nothing to do with wanting my cake and eating it too... it's about using common sense and tying relative aspects of other species together to help understand complex subjects like sexuality."

(Hence your eating young statement doesn't work... just an FYI incase you didn't understand)

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Quote:

My only point is that "it's natural...animals do it" does not qualify as a basis for validation of what humans do.

And why is that?? We are all animals on the same planet so tell me how it all doesn't tie together?

Originally Posted By: NtroducingMyself Quote:My only point is that "it's natural...animals do it" does not qualify as a basis for validation of what humans do. And why is that?? We are all animals on the same planet so tell me how it all doesn't tie together? The reason is because, as already stated, you can use the same kind of logic to validate humans eating their young.

Well when it comes to eating young, we may not go that far but humans are well known to be capable of killing their children. Male lions will sometime kill one of their cubs because its annoying him, and sadly we know that this happens with humans too.Our morals stop us from doing something that harms others, this is sensible. We punish those who hurt others in accordance with our common moral beliefs. But what part of a homosexual relationship harms anyone? Homosexuality is not an ecological disaster, nor does it harmfully tamper with our species' gene pool (unless of course our entire population turns gay, but as long we have religion then, of course, that will never be a problem).

I don't think I read that between any of the lines. Well, yes perhaps the words were too strong. However, it does point out, to those who decry homosexuality as just an immoral choice of lifestyle, the fact that it occurs throughout the animal kingdom and should thus be accepted without prejudice. seems like there's a hook in your statements though... "I don't mind... it's fucking sick and wrong but I don't mind" Not really. It may seem like it but you're fishing in an empty pond.Granted, any sexual encounter with another male has absolutely no appeal to me, but that does not mean that I don't acknowledge the idea that it works for others. I also understand and acknowledge the simple sexual aspects of homosexual encounters, which the article also points out. But if you were to completely eliminate the "sexual" side of the story and focus on the emotional side, that is where I question homosexuality. If research were to unequivocally state, "In order to propogate/strengthen/protect/(fill in the blank) the species, N% of that species needs to be homosexual because X, Y and Z.", then perhaps I would be less skeptical. All anyone is telling me so far is that "It just is what it is". Ineligible is the only one who so far who really gets what I'm asking and has thrown out a few theories.

Holy shit !
lots of posts while I was gone yesterday, unfortunatly Ill be gone most of today as well so Ill have to check in and address stuff as I get time.
I do get you, I think SDP.
I think its disgusting, makes me ill to contemplate having a homosexual encounter myself. But so long as it doesnt involve me im not against other people doing it. I dont undertstand it, but Im not dismessing them doing it.
Thats what your saying isnt it? atleast in part.
The emotional side of it I cant understand, Im not gay so I dont have a way to draw on that experience and explain the emotional part.
I do know that gays have an emotional attachment to the person they are with. Its love, or like, or lust. but its as real for them as it is for you and me with a woman

For me sdp I never thought of you as a gay-hater. You have always treated me good and with respect and I have always respected you for being honest with me. From what I've seen here in the forums, individuals like yourself, Roc, Craig and others are really great guys. Anyone would be a fool to not be honored to be your friends. Just because I have the opinion I do, does not in any way take away my respect and understanding for you as an person.

Well stated.For the record, Eddie, I don't have anything against you either...we just disagree on some points of the Bible is all (as far as I'm concerned, anyway).

Nor do I have a real issue with you either Thor, as you said we have out disagreements when it comes to the bible.But this has nothing to do with the bible and I do feel you are missing the big picture about this article, and I just have no clue how else to word it. You can take similarities from different species without having to make sure everything about the two species are identical in order to come to an understanding about a specific topic. Like you made the comment we all eat, but we all don’t eat the same thing so it make the fact we all eat irrelevant? Of course not because it’s the same function regardless of what we eat. As for Animals eating their young, many species that this happens in is one way of protecting their young. Sick and perhaps twisted way to think but it’s true. We have other ways that we protect our young. Also you cannot use this as a form of validation of humans eating their young because how many humans do you know that eat their young? The reason this study on homosexuality is valid with humans is because homosexuality is a common occurrence in humans as is in the animal kingdom. It helps to disprove the fact that homosexuality is a choice but instead it’s a genetic component.

The difference between people and animals eddie is that people have a consious. They feel the need to justify things.Thats why some people cant look at animals being gay and saying well so what? they eat thier young, it doesnt matter ! we cant eat our young !As people we raised civilizations and made rules and governments so we are above animal behavior (speak for yourself, Im not above it). We created Morals and gay breaks the boundries of those morals.I saw the article as one more thing to rfute people who say its not natural to be gay, those people now change arguments and say so what? it proves nothing, animsl do ____ but we dont so it doesnt matter.As for a reason, I cant think of a reason to be gay, either you are or you are not. People cant accept that there is no reason for some stuff. They need a reason to have shti make sense.A serial killer kills people, he enjoys it and it fills a need. He has no reason that wil ever make sense to the rest of the society, but it makes enough sense to him to do it. Sometimes there is no reason.Being gay doenst really benifit the person who is gay, it doenst make them smarter or better at anything. All it does is make sense to them to be the way they were born and nto lie to themselves about who they are.What more reason do you need for anything?I could never be happy in a gay relationship and you could never be happy in a straight relationship, it is what it is, but Im posative its not a choice.The real moral you have to look at is is it better to live a lie and be depressed and feel like shit about yourself or is it moral better to be who you are and have a chance at being happy in life ?Id suggest anyone who is gay and pretending to not be to make society and family happy, stop the bullshti and be who they are.Life is relatively short, why be miserable for all of it?