This shit sickens me...

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Jesus Camp I'm only halfway through the 2nd part and I'm already filling with anger at these parents.

this fat broad just said "these kids are usable"...

holy fuckin freak show!

How can people be so blind to their own hypocrisy?

paraphrase - it's evil that Muslims indoctrinate children so we will indoctrinate children.

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedparaphrase - it's evil that Muslims indoctrinate children so we will indoctrinate children... ...to be suicide bombers? I'm sorry, but there's no comparison to what some Muslims do with their children.

teaching hatred is unforgivable

I watched that film a couple of years ago, actually with a pretty open mind. I can tell you Bob with almost total certainty that what you watched was a spin-job. A very well-done spin-job to be sure. A lot of it looked a lot like my upbringing, but with all of the negatives amplified and the positives ignored. I didn't see brainwashing in the film, maybe because I know I wasn't brainwashed. I don't think you and others are wrong, though, if you see too much emphasis placed on other things besides love, which should be central to what children are taught about Christianity.

Was there any point in the film where you felt like something positive was going on with those kids and the adults?

It is interesting to hear non-Christian perspectives on the film.

I actually did see an awful lot of love in the film, and the kids were brilliant! Absolute sweethearts and genuinely lovely children, and without a doubt this is a reflection of how they were raised.

But the brainwashing is there. The children were broken down, made to feel guilt and shame and then were carefully raised back up with the ideas of the camp leaders and parents. This is brainwashing.

A scene in the second half seemed very relevant to a conversation point that we have with thor sometimes. He has always claimed that the "homo-agenda" was being pushed on kids at a younger and younger age. But in this film they were introducing abortion issues to children as young as 5 years old. Bringing around tiny model foetuses, most of them very inaccurate to the age that the talker was claiming, and handing them out to the kids. Earlier in the movie they were about to sit and eat when one of the camp leaders had them all pray for god to bless their food and to stop abortions!

I won't even get started on one of the scenes where the boy with the long hair (lovely fella) was studying his Creation book with his mother.

I understand what you're saying. I think the issue might be one of what should be introduced at what age. I agree with you AND Thor that it's very premature and inappropriate to discuss homosexuality (or any sexuality) and abortion with a 5 year old. They just don't have the capacity to understand anything about those issues really. But I also believe matters of faith, particularly the basics of Christianity (since that happens to be my faith system) can be discussed with children at a very early age. As soon as they have the cognitive ability to understand it.Hmmm...could it be that I should put this film on my netfix cue and watch it again, this time looking for the things you are seeing...?

You could, or you could follow the link from my first post. :grin:

I only live about three hours away from the camp thats since been shut down. All of the stuff you see in the movie was actually fairly accurate. I've heard from people who have been to the camp that it is a form of brainwashing. All you have to do is look at what they are saying and what they are praying for.The christian god doesn't take sides. That's fairly obvious and has been preached MANY times. To pray for god to somehow act out on a situation in which you believe is the right way not only doesn't work but goes against the idea of a god.The sad part is that Jesus camp is just a reflection of the upbringing of many evangelists. That's why so many are stuck in their ways and don't have open minds because they are brainwashed. We even have a quite noticeable member of the forum who has clearly been a victim of this.My upbringing was in a Christian elementary school and Jesuit high school, I'd say that even though it was subtle there was brainwashing involved there. They never teach the alternatives, it's always Christianity. Other religions or no religions at all are never even brought up in these schools. That's probably why people are shocked when they hear that I'm atheist. You need extreme will power and initiative in order to go out and find what else is out there and not become engulfed in what is being spoon fed to you.

Originally Posted By: TechnichalThe christian god doesn't take sides.I couldn't disagree more.  Quote:My upbringing was in a Christian elementary school and Jesuit high school, I'd say that even though it was subtle there was brainwashing involved there. They never teach the alternatives, it's always Christianity.Why should they? They're Christian schools. That's kind of the point. You wouldn't expect a Muslim school to teach Christianity or a Jewish school to teach Islam, would you? Shoot, we can't get public schools to give equal time to all belief systems. Why would you expect that from a Christian school?

Originally Posted By: damien

Originally Posted By: Technichal

The christian god doesn't take sides.
I couldn't disagree more.

Why should they? They're Christian schools. That's kind of the point. You wouldn't expect a Muslim school to teach Christianity or a Jewish school to teach Islam, would you? Shoot, we can't get public schools to give equal time to all belief systems. Why would you expect that from a Christian school?
Please explain why you disagree, stating that you disagree does not help me understand why.

As for your second statement. There's several ways I can get you on this. One is that private religious schools still receive funding from the province which means that they are under obligation to teach students in the same way a public school would be taught.. balanced. Another point is the fact that ignoring other religions even exist does not create an intelligent student, it produces an ignorant one. My Jesuit high school finally taught about other religions in grade 11, but it was a history class and never dealt with the merit of any religions.

The Jesuit high school mission is to produce well-balanced students that are educated to go out into the world and succeed. You cannot succeed if you don't know what else is out there.

I also did not ask for equal time. Please show me where I once stated that other religions deserved equal time. I stated that education includes knowledge of other alternative religions. Of course it would be ridiculous to ask a Christian school to teach about other religions just as much as Christianity.

Originally Posted By: TechnicalPlease explain why you disagree, stating that you disagree does not help me understand why.My beliefs***God not only takes sides, he creates them. He clearly sets standards for right and wrong. If you look throughout scripture, you'll see him being pretty clear about those who are with him and those who are against him, and also being pretty clear about the consequences that stem from either decision.I understand that you may or may not be talking about the God of the Bible. I'm not assuming you are or aren't. That's why I began with a disclaimer that my answer to this question is based on my beliefs about God. Quote:As for your second statement. There's several ways I can get you on this.Well...first of all, I'm not interested in having a conversation that hinges on one person getting the other. I'm all about sharing viewpoints. I'm not interested in gotcha. Quote:One is that private religious schools still receive funding from the province which means that they are under obligation to teach students in the same way a public school would be taught.. balanced.I can't speak for you good folks in the Great White North, but here in the USA, private/parochial schools are under no such obligation. That's why most of them exist. Quote:Another point is the fact that ignoring other religions even exist does not create an intelligent student, it produces an ignorant one.This probably stems from my not being very clear. I wasn't meaning to say a Christian school shouldn't teach about other religions (although they are under no obligation to do so). I was only meaning that the reserve the right to teach Christianity as the true religion, just as a Muslim school would teach Islam as the true religion. Most of the good private/parochial schools I know of do a better job of teaching students about diverse worldviews than most public schools do. Quote:My Jesuit high school finally taught about other religions in grade 11, but it was a history class and never dealt with the merit of any religions.I still don't get this. Can you help me understand why you think a Jesuit school should teach the "merits" of other religions? It's a Jesuit school. It's why the exist***For many years those involved in Jesuit secondary and pre-secondary education, both lay and Jesuit, have offered and shared their gifts as committed partners, contributing to and sacrificing for the mission of the school, laboring with Christ and one another for the greater glory of God. The Spirit of God certainly continues to animate the generous work of the women and men who accept the call to partnership in the mission of Jesuit education. What Makes a Jesuit School Jesuit? (Jesuit Conference, 2006)  Quote:The Jesuit high school mission is to produce well-balanced students that are educated to go out into the world and succeed.I think the Society of Jesus (the Jesuits) would disagree with you. See above quote. It's from their website.  Quote:I also did not ask for equal time.You're right. You didn't. Quote:I stated that education includes knowledge of other alternative religions.Knowledge of them, sure. But that doesn't necessitate giving any of them validity. Quote:Of course it would be ridiculous to ask a Christian school to teach about other religions just as much as Christianity. So we end in agreement. Cool.

Remember that my statement that God doesn't create sides was relating to the Islam vs Christianity religious war ongoing. Do you still believe God chooses sides relating to this?

As for your statement about Jesuit High Schools. When I say merit, that illustrates that every religion has value. Rather then denying and rejecting any values sent forth by other religions they should in fact embrace them.

Also that quote is a very segregated one. This is what Jesuit High Schools expect from graduates.

http://www.sluh.org/about/profile/Grad%20at%20Grad/

Grad at Grad. I hear it every day.

my ex-wife went to catholic school and World Religions Class played quite prominently in the curriculum. Unfortunately, that's an important element missing from public school here these days.When I was in my primary grades in public shcool, we had bible readings every morning. I loved the story of Jesus and, to be totally honest, if it were not for that early education of Christianity, I could be a very different person now. As I grew, I saw an ever widening divide between many Christians and Christ and that was the deal breaker for me. I still feel I was well served by those stories in my youth.Now, if the kids today were to learn the histories and philosophies of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and more, I think we might end up with a more understanding and peaceful world.

That's the exact arguement I'm trying to make.The morals that many of Jesus' stories portrayed were good ones. Also the majority of the stories you hear when you are young are the good ones, not the ones ridden with hypocrisy. Which is why I don't see problems with reading to children religious parables. My trouble is later on when the stories are continued to be read and taken literally.Although it wouldn't necessarily be difficult to replace religious parables with ones without religion involved in them.

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedNow, if the kids today were to learn the histories and philosophies of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and more, I think we might end up with a more understanding and peaceful world. Nice theory...but their are a few religions where it doesn't work.Neither our understanding of Islam, nor their understanding of Judaism and Christianity, is going to stop some of them from killing innocent people.

presumably, you are referring to the JDL, IRA and KKK among other murderous, sub-groups of various religions

We can't do much to change other people, but we can change ourselves through knowledge, if we choose.

I think thor has illustrated the point quite clearly that ignorance leads away from peace.
If you were to ask a terrorist if he was about to take a single "innocent" life during his pending attack, I believe he would say no. For in his ignorance, he sees others as guilty. As thor condemns Islam, it shows a frightening parallel.