This shit sickens me...

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Originally Posted By: unsupervisedI think thor has illustrated the point quite clearly that ignorance leads away from peace.If you were to ask a terrorist if he was about to take a single "innocent" life during his pending attack, I believe he would say no. For in his ignorance, he sees others as guilty. As thor condemns Islam, it shows a frightening parallel. I do not condemn Islam...I condemn those who take lives needlessly. Certain groups of Muslims, currently, overshadow all other religious groups in this...which is why I used it as an example. Coincidentally, it is also the only religion, that I know of, that condones the killing of those of other specific religions as a matter of course.Why can't you just admit your idea doesn't work? Good start...but it's going to take more than that. We've had this discussion before.

Quote:it is also the only religion, that I know of, that condones the killing of those of other specific religions as a matter of course without listing the checked histories of nearly every religion on the planet, I think finding and studying the remarkably few religions that don't condone killing of other specific religions and even the killing of other sects within their own religion would be worth while.

Originally Posted By: unsupervised

Quote:

it is also the only religion, that I know of, that condones the killing of those of other specific religions as a matter of course

without listing the checked histories of nearly every religion on the planet, I think finding and studying the remarkably few religions that don't condone killing of other specific religions and even the killing of other sects within their own religion would be worth while.

QFT.

Also ignorance is the fuel to the burning fire that is hatred, you take out ignorance and there is no more fuel thus the fire burns out.

Of course like earlier stated, there are always those who are unwilling to acknowledge other thought processes, or change their ways in any shape, way or form.

Quote:

that's an important element missing from public school here these days.

Yes I attended Catholic school for 2 years and world religions was my favourite class. I loved it.. and the majority of my classmates say the same thing

Originally Posted By: unsupervised  Quote:it is also the only religion, that I know of, that condones the killing of those of other specific religions as a matter of course without listing the checked histories of nearly every religion on the planet, I think finding and studying the remarkably few religions that don't condone killing of other specific religions and even the killing of other sects within their own religion would be worth while. We cannot solve the man-made issues of the past by taking action against religions in the present. Present-day issues are, of course, another matter. With that in mind, you'd have to include Christianity on your list...and a lot of other religions as well. Muslim is the only religion I know of that has an open-ended mandate to kill all those who will not convert to Islam...though there may be others. Do not confuse issues of men with issues of religion...though, with your hatred of Christianity, you would no doubt find it convenient to do so.

now you're just being a pure and flat out racist.the terrorists of the IRA get a freebee because they're white christians? But all those darkies are out to get you. enlighten me oh wise one. I have a Quran here on my desk. Please direct me to the "convert or kill" passage so I may read it myself. I'm apparently to stupid to find it.And I have never expressed any hatred for Christians or any other religion. My specific distaste is with individuals or groups who distort the faith for their own agenda like Radical Muslems, neo-con Christians, Radical Zionists, militant Sikhs etc etc Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism all preach peace but but yet many still insist on hatred, war and death and THOSE PEOPLE ARE ALL THE SAME. When you're all looking down the barrels of each others' guns, you're looking in the mirror.

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedthe terrorists of the IRA get a freebee because they're white christians? But all those darkies are out to get you.I'll just stand in the corner waiting for thor to claim that the IRA were purely political...

Originally Posted By: unsupervisednow you're just being a pure and flat out racist.I'm sure you wish it were so...just as I'm sure you wish I hated somebody or some people. How does it feel to wish that hatred exists, anyway? Quote:the terrorists of the IRA get a freebee because they're white christians? But all those darkies are out to get you. They get no freebee...but the basis for their feud cannot be found in their religion. Quote:I'm apparently to stupid to find it.You said it...I didn't. But the truth is that you probably do not have a true translation. Translations into English usually omit such portions of the text. That's right...they're intentionally incomplete. Hard to believe...but it's true. And your attitude and response to my telling you this will likely prove out their assumptions as to how the truth on this will be received. Find somebody who's had an independent translation done. Or, better yet, ask a Muslim! Quote:And I have never expressed any hatred for Christians...No...you just wish you could prove they hate...which in itself is an expression of hatred. Face it...you and bob have issues with Christianity. But you won't solve your issues by attacking the religion, or its followers. Quote:My specific distaste is with individuals or groups who distort the faith for their own agenda like Radical Muslems, neo-con Christians, Radical Zionists, militant Sikhs etc etc If that is true, why don't you direct your bile towards them...or is the "boogeyman" behind every rock and door? Quote:Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism all preach peace...Islam preaches both peace and war. The Koran is contradictory. Again, ask a good Muslim friend...one who won't lie to you.

because you obviously did not look it up when last we spoke of it, let me help...  Quote: Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In a non sequitur, the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a disconnection between the premise and the conclusion. All formal fallacies are special cases of non sequitur. The term has special applicability in law, having a formal legal definition. Many types of known non sequitur argument forms have been classified into many different types of logical fallacies.You ask of me, "How does it feel to wish that hatred exists, anyway?", implying that my recognition of hatred reflects my desire for it to exist. That does not follow. The disease is oblivious to my diagnosis.Do I have a true translation of the Quran? Do you have a true translation of the bible? Tell me, did Moses have horns?But again, you are shrugging off the burden of proof with another non sequitur; Because neither you nor I posses an original text, nor could we read it if we did, therefore your sight unseen impression of the text is valid. That does not follow.It's funny you should mention the boogy-man as I've used that expression more than once in our conversations... gays, liberals, Muslims, atheists... they all lurk behind your trees, waiting to pounce on your family. I feel sorry for you in the frightening world in which you choose to liveNow about my Muslim friends, let's pick a cross section of 3 who are quite different (you can then tell me about your Muslim friends and their Ideas)O.N. - Egyptian. Male. in his 50's, Engineer, University in Canada, Living and working in CaliforniaS.K. - Turkish, Sufi, Famale. in her 30's. Lived in both Turkey and Canada, currently in Canada, studying to become an interfaith councilor.I.H. - Pakistani, Suni, Male. 40, in Canada since childhood with family connections still in Pakistan. Business owner, Manufacturer of telecommunications productsAn email from O.N. during a recent discussion about the world...  Quote:Yes, a lot of the confrontational and aggressive words are taken out of context. Historical or religious. Even I, a moderate one who loves peace and cried, I mean SOBBED, when I saw the twin towers fall, just as I cried, and still cry, when I heard, and still hear, about the atrocities in Serbia, Bosnia, Palestine, Kosovo, or anywhere else. Human life is human life. Most Moslems are conservative in the old way off defining the word, traditional, modest reserved. Not in the hate-mongering minority on both sides. A lot of the anger is from the way one issue is tangled into another. But Palestine is a major issue, since it touches on one of the holiest sites.My theory, Muslims were quite peaceful until the Iranian revolution, where the Shia exploded, and brought down the wrath and hatred of, and against, the (Christian) West. Because he (the Ayatollah) attacked the Christian West, not the political West. Even when Nasser was around, there was the animosity against him and not Egypt or Muslims. Hate- and fear-mongering is not limited to the Limbaughs and O’Rileys of the world. Back to the Shia, they rise up every couple of centuries and stir crap and go back to sleep.You have known a lot of Muslims in Waterloo. The ones I remember are fine human beings, some are jerks mind you, but none are as hateful or hate-filled as the ones we see on TV. Many of the most religious are nice people-loving. And that is partly the spirit of Islam, love for thy brother what you love for yourself. God is beautiful and loves beauty, not hate or war. Yes there are aggressive words, and eye for an eye and a nail for a nail, AND THE AGGRESSOR IS THE SINNER, then comes a line. Part of the sentence, “and if you forgive it is better for the forgiver” (turn the other cheek?) Peace upon you and the mercy of Allah and his blessing (The entire greeting, Allah is the Arabic word for God) going to call my friend a liar? You'd better have some solid references to back it up.In a recent conversation with S.K., she took deep offence to me even referring to the Taliban as Muslim. She was so adamant that she challenged me to find a single Muslim in our town who would consider these disgusting animals Muslim.They claim to be Muslim as the KKK claim to be Christian, though neither seem to act in accordance with their faith.and I.H., a good friend of mine and an interesting character. Yes, he hails from both a tumultuous sect AND region. He is a man who is deeply respectful of others, especially women. He keeps a box of very expensive chocolates under the bed in case his wife might wake up sad one day.He also harbors a scathing hatred for these militants as they not only damage Islam but also ruin the world view of the religion.So, please tell me what your Muslim friends have to say, thor.

Perhaps your friends are liars...after all, it is part of the Arabic culture; especially concerning non-Arabs. Perhaps they are merely a part of the 85% of all Muslims who don't know what's actually written in the Koran...they are not encouraged to read it for themselves, you know. Either way, here are some interesting things:Textbook Islamic Antisemitism 164 Jihad Verses in the Koran...and, just for fun:Obama's Praise Of One Thousand Year Old Al-Azhar University Ignores Its Anti-Semitism

as I read these and do a few cross checks and source checks, please enlighten us as to the opinions of your Muslim friends. I value your first hand experience as a point of reference.Then let's explore some of the war mongering in the bible, just to be balanced.Don't forget, I hold all religion in equal esteem.  Quote:they are not encouraged to read it for themselves, you know I know. The same goes for Jews and Catholics, to name but a few.

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedas I read these and do a few cross checks and source checks, please enlighten us as to the opinions of your Muslim friends. I value your first hand experience as a point of reference.We generally don't discuss things like this...perhaps you can understand why. But the one friend I did discuss it with told me that the Koran has much violence in it (he's a very peaceful man). At the time, I was surprised. Not now. Quote:Then let's explore some of the war mongering in the bible, just to be balanced.Only an artificial balance can be achieved were none naturally exists. The Bible does not single out specific religions...the Koran does. The Bible does not call for ongoing striving and warefare against non-believers...the Koran does. In this regard, there is no comparison.

Originally Posted By: unsupervised Quote:they are not encouraged to read it for themselves, you know I know. The same goes for Jews and Catholics, to name but a few. If you already knew that, why quote your friends whom you admit most likely don't even know what's in their book? Seems dishonest to me.

thus far, the references cited (not by you, as usual, but by the authors you've referred to) have left much to interpretation. There is speak of non believers being shamed (not "jews" and not "killed") and also speak of retaliation, not aggression. As you can imagine, cross checking is taking some time but my preliminary results show that the Quran, like the Bible, is allegorical at best.Hence the great downfall of so many religions. If it's so damn important, why can't it be clear?  Quote: If you already knew that, why quote your friends whom you admit most likely don't even know what's in their book? Seems dishonest to me. I said I know it's not officially encouraged, not that it isn't read. My friend, the coucelor for instance is aiming for a position as a sort of lay-imam at the local hospital. (I would need to call her to get the correct title) I think her studies may include cracking the Quran open now and then, wouldn't you?

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedThen let's explore some of the war mongering in the bible, just to be balanced. I was waiting for someone to ask!Qu'ranDisbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90BibleGod kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24Qu'ranAllah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50BibleGod sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17Qu'ranDisbelievers will have a painful doom. And they will have no helpers. 3:91BibleIf you do what God says, he won't send his diseases on you (like he did to the Egyptians). But otherwise.... 15:26The Bible is JUST as violent as the Qu'ran.How could you honestly take either of these books literally and still worship these God's? They are murderer's, and evil themselves. I think in their wanting to rid the world of evil and satan they have become the one they hate the most, Satan himself.Isn't that ironic? God has worked so hard to defeat Satan that God becomes Satan. Even in their own fairytales the author's of these holy books couldn't make God a good spirit.

Originally Posted By: Technical Originally Posted By: unsupervisedThen let's explore some of the war mongering in the bible, just to be balanced. I was waiting for someone to ask!Qu'ranDisbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90BibleGod kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24Qu'ranAllah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50BibleGod sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17Qu'ranDisbelievers will have a painful doom. And they will have no helpers. 3:91BibleIf you do what God says, he won't send his diseases on you (like he did to the Egyptians). But otherwise.... 15:26The Bible is JUST as violent as the Qu'ran.How could you honestly take either of these books literally and still worship these God's? They are murderer's, and evil themselves. I think in their wanting to rid the world of evil and satan they have become the one they hate the most, Satan himself.Isn't that ironic? God has worked so hard to defeat Satan that God becomes Satan. Even in their own fairytales the author's of these holy books couldn't make God a good spirit. You prove by your posts, time and again, that you just don't get it. God is in control, always has been, always will be. Satan is here for a reason...that's why God sent him here. In tasting of the fruit of the Garden of Eden, our eyes were opened to a dualistic world...the knowledge of good and evil. Before that, the dualistic concept was unavailable to Adam and Eve. Now in a dualistic world, we must make a choice...and God offers the two choices we have. We have freewill to choose for ourselves...nobody is forcing anybody; though as with all things in life there are sometimes consequences. Not so in the Koran...with Islam, you have no choice. The very word "muslim" refers to submission. There is no comparison between the Bible and the Koran even to the casual observer...that you could find none for yourself speaks to your own personal desires, not the two books.

lmaoI'm not sure if you're just pulling this shit out of your ass of if you have a stock-answer card. Either way, you always manage to skirt every issue. It's funI'll get back to this tomorrow, I must go visit my girl friend for some sin nowlove ya man!

But the God in the bible makes it fairly clear that if you choose evil, then he will punish you for it not only in this life, but in the next form of life. Therefor God makes it clear what he wants you to do. Not really free choice.The Qu'ran of course lets you have two options as well, if it didn't then I wouldn't be able to be a non-believer. Much like the judeo/christian god I will be punished for being one.I'm suprised you couldn't put two and two together.Also unsupervised, it's not that he skirts around the real issue, it's that he isn't intelligent enough to address it. He cannot think for himself.Also if god is always in control then it becomes clear that God is a murderer.

Originally Posted By: TechnicalBut the God in the bible makes it fairly clear that if you choose evil, then he will punish you for it not only in this life, but in the next form of life. Therefor God makes it clear what he wants you to do. Not really free choice.The Qu'ran of course lets you have two options as well, if it didn't then I wouldn't be able to be a non-believer. Much like the judeo/christian god I will be punished for being one.The difference is that the Koran says believers are to take the lives of others in their gods name...the Bible says nothing of the sort. One hands the task of killing to its followers...the other does not. Which do you think is more dangerous to the human condition? What does the evidence of current events around the world suggest? Quote:Also if god is always in control then it becomes clear that God is a murderer. I guessed you missed the part about free will. God merely provides us with the situation and a choice. We are the ones who choose our destiny.

Yeah you're right Thor! Christians don't need to kill non-believers because God does it for them!GREAT! Also I think you missed the difference between moral evil and natural evil. You believe that natural evil occurs because God wants it too, which means that God is a murderer. Natural evil has no conscience, a hurricane does not pick and choose who will die, if God existed then God is bound to stay within his own laws. I just wrote an entire religion exam on this subject and have the entire catholic clergy behind me as well as every non-religious out there. GOD DOES NOT HAVE CONTROL WHEN IT COMES TO EVIL. That includes natural AND moral evil.If you continue to choose to believe that God has control of natural evil, then I will continue to accuse your God of being a murderer.