Three Things About Islam

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Originally Posted By: unsupervisedI've seen many statement from out mutual friend that strangely mirror recent commentaries by Beck of Hannity. Ahh...gotcha. I can see that definitely. At the same time, I see Hannity and Beck (particularly Beck) as the extreme fringe for even Fox news. I think pretty much anyone else besides those two are pretty rational and at least attempt to be fair. Yeah...I really don't like those two at all.Sorry...we're putting that aside!

Originally Posted By: unsupervised...once again, you and/or your FOX mentors are MAKING SHIT UP! LOL...and once again, I'll have to remind you that I don't watch TV. The first time you mentioned these guys, sometime back, I had to go look them up to see who they were! Here's a dose of reality for you. It helps put into perspective what this is really all aboot, eh?...and remember, to understand what it is about one must look at it through the eyes of Muslims...not Canadians or Americans.

Or it could be one of many New York mosques that is built in New York to service the large Muslim community in the area.What they are doing, no matter what their intentions, is not illegal so there is nothing you can do about it but bitch and moan.

Originally Posted By: bobaliciousOr it could be one of many New York mosques that is built in New York to service the large Muslim community in the area.What they are doing, no matter what their intentions, is not illegal so there is nothing you can do about it but bitch and moan. The legality has not yet been decided. In America, there are zoning laws...laws which allow for the input of the local populace on such matters (as long as somebody like Obama doesn't illegally ram it down their throats).Seems to me you get crabby whenever I place doubt about your position in your mind. Maybe you should stop reading my posts?

Originally Posted By: thorThe legality has not yet been decided. In America, there are zoning laws...laws which allow for the input of the local populace on such matters (as long as somebody like Obama doesn't illegally ram it down their throats).1 - Yes you're right, I was rash to say that its not illegal, zoning issues are still pending resolution.2 - Since when has Obama been trying to ram it down people's throats? Have you read what he has said on the issue or just a bastardised version of it? "But let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances."Obama's position is simply that if there is no legal objection to the Mosque being built then they should have the freedom to build it. And whats wrong with that? Originally Posted By: thorSeems to me you get crabby whenever I place doubt about your position in your mind. Maybe you should stop reading my posts? Crabby? I actually enjoy debating this stuff with you, its always nice to hear the other side's point of view. Granted, we will probably never agree on most of these issues but its unhealthy to listen to nothing but your own opinions.(If the phrase "bitch and moan" came across as being crabby, I apologise. Its not as severe a saying here in Ireland as I know it is in other countries.)

here's a dose of reality for you... maybe even 2 or 3-they are not building a mosque. It's a community centre with basketball courts , a music school and prayer rooms.-it's not a ground zero but several blocks away.-there is an actual mosque closer to ground zero and has existed there since before the construction of the trade center.-The imam working with this project is Sufi - a moderate, accepting and spiritual sect of Islam (and therefore a target of hate a violence by the same extremist who hate you)-you will believe any piece of hate-speech, bigoted propaganda that comes your way. You are being indoctrinated by the exact same tactics that the Nazis used to convince normal, everyday Germans that the persecution of the Jews was actually reasonable. Enjoy.

Originally Posted By: unsupervised-there is an actual mosque closer to ground zero and has existed there since before the construction of the trade center.I didn't know this.I guess Fox News isn't reporting it, huh?Seriously though, doesn't that sort of change the conversation a bit?I still really have mixed views on this. I think there is a valid discussion to be had. Not about legalities. But about propriety and community interest and whatnot. I totally get why people think it's not a good idea to build a Muslim community center there. And I can't understand why this Imam, if he's the sensitive, tolerant, let's just get along guy he claims to be, can't do the bigger thing and build it somewhere less controversial.At the same time, this is a great opportunity for non-Muslim Americans to step up and do the bigger thing. They could communicate that they wish the Imam wouldn't build it there, but if he is going to, they will step off and let him do what he has a right to do. And then maybe look for ways to work with him in honoring the victims of 9/11 and those who fear another attack.Basically, neither side wants to step up and do what's right. It's a big ole pissing contest, and I don't see how it can end well.

By the way, I've just heard recently that the plans for the building to built at Ground Zero will include a 50,000 square feet shopping mall on the ground floor, in essence on the remains of many who died on 9/11. How does that honor the victims and their families?Wouldn't a park with a small, tasteful monument be more appropriate and in keeping with the spirit of how most Americans conceptualize the tragedy?

how better to memorialize America that with a Wal Mart?

Your in TN aren't you damien? What's going on with protest about the community center the local mosque is wanting to build in Murefeesboro?

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedhere's a dose of reality for you... maybe even 2 or 3-they are not building a mosque. It's a community centre with basketball courts , a music school and prayer rooms.A community center with a mosque in it. It is also standard practice for Muslims to build mosques in territories they conquer (yes, conquer by violent means.) The mosque placed in Spain, after they conquered there, goes by the same name as the one they intend to call this "community center" at ground zero. The intended message to the Muslim population of the world is clear. Quote:-it's not a ground zero but several blocks away.Close enough for landing gear of a destroyed aircraft to land on the building there...and close enough to send the intended message. That they would use the 9/11 disaster as a tool for their political gain is disgusting...for Islam, unlike any other major religion, is as much political as it is religious. Quote:-there is an actual mosque closer to ground zero and has existed there since before the construction of the trade center.Really? Is it still standing and in use? Quote:-The imam working with this project is Sufi - a moderate, accepting and spiritual sect of Islam (and therefore a target of hate a violence by the same extremist who hate you)He has also been quoted as wishing to bring Shari'a Law to the United States...which would contradict your above statement. Nothing more needs be said. Quote:-you will believe any piece of hate-speech, bigoted propaganda that comes your way. You are being indoctrinated by the exact same tactics that the Nazis used to convince normal, everyday Germans that the persecution of the Jews was actually reasonable. Enjoy. The only things hateful and bigotted are your words and ideals...those of a liberal. They stand for the rights of everybody except those who appose your viewpoints...which is not what this country was founded on. Quite the opposite. The reason you cannot be indoctrinated by Nazis (who are Socialists, BTW) is because you already believe as they do.

Originally Posted By: bobalicious

2 - Since when has Obama been trying to ram it down people's throats? Have you read what he has said on the issue or just a bastardised version of it?

He hasn't yet...and now that it's become such a big issue he probably won't. With his approval rating so low it would seal his fate next election.

As for what he said on the issue, his recent statements have been more neutral than his earlier ones...probably for the same reason. You don't seem to believe/understand that Obama is a politician.

Originally Posted By: OldFolksYour in TN aren't you damien? What's going on with protest about the community center the local mosque is wanting to build in Murefeesboro? I read about this. The gall of those trying erect a mosque near ground zero is beginning to anger a lot of folks, and they're reacting, very predictably, towards the building of all mosques in general. If Muslims were truly interested in peaceful coexistance, they should back off on building mosques for awhile. But then again, if they were interested in that, they never should have tried to build one near ground zero. It's unfortunate...but it's pointless to argue against human nature.

Originally Posted By: OldFolksYour in TN aren't you damien? What's going on with protest about the community center the local mosque is wanting to build in Murefeesboro? Actually I'm in Kentucky and haven't heard about this.

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It is also standard practice for Muslims to build mosques in territories they conquer
I'm astonished! Muslims building mosques where they live?

I believe the Crusaders built churches in territories they conquered.

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The mosque placed in Spain, after they conquered there, goes by the same name as the one they intend to call this "community center" at ground zero.
Interestingly, in view of what you've mentioned before about Muslims converting churches into mosques, the Great Mosque of Córdoba is now the Catedral de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción. The middle of the magnificent mosque was demolished and a traditional church erected inside; the whole building is now a church.

The Caliphate of Córdoba was notable for its remarkable religious tolerance for the times. Though run by a Muslim ruler, Christians and Jews had religious and social freedom (though they were not equal, and had to pay a special tax). It appears that this tolerance is the reason for the choice of the name in New York.

After the Muslim territories in Spain were reconquered by Christian kings (by violent means), Muslims and Jews now had to pay a tax, and the policy of religious freedom gradually declined. There were mass forced baptisms of both Jews and Muslims, and forced expulsions. The Spanish Inquisition was set up. Nearly all mosques were demolished. In 1492, immediately after the last Muslim kingdom fell, all Jews were required to leave Spain. In 1609 all descendants of former Muslims, even though now Christian, were required to leave the country.

>A community center with a mosque in it

no, you are making that up.

>It is also standard practice for Muslims to build mosques in territories they conquer (yes, conquer by violent means.)

so is every single church in America, or did you forget there were people with religion there before the Christians?

>The mosque placed in Spain, after they conquered there, goes by the same name as the one they intend to call this "community center" at ground zero. The intended message to the Muslim population of the world is clear.

Ineligible beat me to the answer there (thanks Pete)

Yes, also the actual Mosque in Manhattan is in regular, daily use. (ooo scary)

So, you go ahead and chase those damn sandniggers outta yer back yard there Bubba while you try to vote for someone willing to chase freedom of worship outta yer constitution
eeeehaw!

I knew I could count on you to focus all of your attention on the portions of history that involved the time where the Catholic church was at the peak of its political power...a position that has not been held by any other Christian church, and never condoned by the Bible. I also knew I could count on you to ignore the entire history of Muslim conquest that was at least equally violent, and that the mechanism by which it was brought about, the Koran (however you wish to spell it), still exists and is being used to support violence today...while maintaining all its political force since the day the book was written. One situation remains germaine to the modern world we live in...the other does not. Congratulations on ignorance gained by turning a selectively blind eye to history. It's no wonder you don't understand what's going on.

Originally Posted By: unsupervised>A community center with a mosque in itno, you are making that up.Nope. Quote:>It is also standard practice for Muslims to build mosques in territories they conquer (yes, conquer by violent means.)so is every single church in America, or did you forget there were people with religion there before the Christians?Not usually on the site of destruction, no. Quote:>The mosque placed in Spain, after they conquered there, goes by the same name as the one they intend to call this "community center" at ground zero. The intended message to the Muslim population of the world is clear.Ineligible beat me to the answer there (thanks Pete)He doesn't see it the way Muslims do, and niether do you. Quote:Yes, also the actual Mosque in Manhattan is in regular, daily use. (ooo scary)Then pleae explain the purpose of building another? And understand that with all the disgust drudged up by the propostion of building it, the excuse of "promoting tolerance" no longer washes. Quote:So, you go ahead and chase those damn sandniggers outta yer back yard there Bubba while you try to vote for someone willing to chase freedom of worship outta yer constitution eeeehaw! LOL! Overly emotional reponses when confronted with uncomfortable truths are the norm for liberals. You have no idea how to maintain freedom for yourself, much less an entire country. The freedom to practice religion does not include the freedom to trample on the memories of those fallen, adding insult to injury. It does not grant to right to be stupid when dealing with the lives of others in the name of your own agenda.

Well, thor, you might have noticed that I was responding to what you said. There were some aspects of the history of Córdoba, significant to the use of its name in this context, that you seemed not to know. I wasn't going to waste my time and yours telling you what you knew already. Quote:One situation remains germaine to the modern world we live in...the other does not.I disagree. Neither past Muslim nor past Christian military campaigns will be repeated identically in modern times, but both influence the present, and both illustrate human nature.You believe that Muslims seek to take over the West and Christians do not seek to take over the Muslim world, yet in recent years the United States has invaded and occupied two Muslim states. Yes, it did not do so in order to Christianise the people, but it did do so in order to remove their former governments and put in place new governments that would be more pro-West and against Islamic fundamentalism.

Originally Posted By: IneligibleYou believe that Muslims seek to take over the West and Christians do not seek to take over the Muslim world... Yes I do. In fact, the Koran states in it that that is exactly what Muslims are supposed to do. And it includes forcing more moderate Muslims to join in...which is why the percentage of trouble-makers is increasing. Their move to take over the world is happening as we speak. The only question is how long you and folks just like you will remain in denial. Hopefully not so long as you find them knocking on your door.