When did it start?

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I was having a very interesting conversation last night with a friend and we were discussing the beginning of the universe. (I know, what a thrilling social life I have!) The conversation was slipping in and out of a religious debate and one very interesting thought popped into my head. I did a little bit of looking and so far it seems to be sound.A common argument for the existence of God (yes, its about this, sorta) is that every action is a reaction to another action. Basically the reason for everything in this very moment of time is a reaction to everything that happened previously. Now, the logical resolution to this is that at some point in the past there was the first action, the immovable mover. Something that happened that did not have any pre-occurring actions. This has been one of the longest and most repeated arguments for the existence of God as the religious believe (and this is one belief that seems to be a constant among all believers) that God created everything, that He was the immovable mover, the first action.The key problem with this is that there is no evidence for a first action. By this I don't mean there is no evidence for God, I mean that the beginning of the universe has always been assumed to have been an event, the event. But as King Lear said, "Nothing comes from nothing." This too has been repeated by many religious figures and is quite true. So, as nothing can come from nothing, there mustn't have been a beginning. I know that what has probably popped into your head right now are two words, 'Big Bang'. The thing about the Big Bang is that it has never explained the beginning of the universe, it describes the sudden and rapid expansion of space, time, matter and energy. It does not state that these elements were created though, and resent advances in String Theory suggests that all of these existed in more basic form before the Big Bang.Basically what my thoughts are on this is that we have never been able to show anything coming into existence, including the universe, so why does everyone have a built in system that tells them that everything has a beginning? We have based many of our creations on this principle; films have a beginning and an end, as do songs and journeys. Can we ever escape this way of thinking or is it necessary? Will we have to make the shift in thinking that people had to make centuries ago when they found themselves to be on a sphere instead of a flat plane? Or is it like the emergence of new dimensions that string theory predicts, where their existence is necessary but will never require a change of thought process in the foreseeable future as we have no known way of manipulating the other dimensions or seeing our influence on them?This is why I need to find better things to do with my time...

Your contentions that everyone (culture) sees things as having a beginning and an end is very Euro-centric. While that mindset has become predominate throughout the world its not the case with everyone. Outside the western mindset it's not uncommon for cosmological thought to be just the opposite, assuming things to be cyclical without beginning and without end, they just are.

I think the idea that the oak grows from the acorn is so deeply ingrained in the western mind that many miss the bigger picture of the evolution of the tree.

Yes, by most believers I was speaking mainly of the religions that have a creation myth of some sort.

a lot of creation myths do have this sort of "pick up the story from here" element. Many of the North American Native myths involve a bit of mud from the bottom of the ocean. But the ocean and the ocean floor were already there.If the Judeo-Christian creation myth is to be believed, what was god doing for the eternity before he created earth?So in science, we continue to search, postulate, theorize and discover. The big bang theory also includes the big crunch theory... looking at the universe as a continual cycle of creation and destruction. There is a simple elegance to this.As far as linear thinking, I don't know how we could escape it. Some my philosophize and theorize and dream of a nonlinear state of being, but the simple fact is that we all live on a time line. Birth - Death... and all stops in between.

The big crunch theory has been widely discounted with the discovery of the ever more rapidly expanding universe. One more and more accepted theory is that expansion of the universe will speed up to the point that even atomic and subatomic particles can no longer hold their constituents together. As the universe slips into nothingness all traces of matter are eventually wiped clean. The only thing left in the vacuum of space will be the quantum particles that flash into existence then cancel each other out and disappear fast enough to not violate any other laws of physics. Even nothing is something.Perhaps it's one of these quantum fluctuations somehow not canceling it's partner out and being left to exist that gives rise to a "bang" and inflation. While that's pure, simple, speculation on my part, in such a state the universe is cyclical and not linear and further it would suggest there are a multitude of universes that lie beyond our observable sphere. With regard to escaping linear thinking I would think linear thought the more contrived of the two states. Linear thinking focus on the part and ignores the process, it's evolution, and the interconnection of events and matter. I am not me simply because I'm me. I'm me because I am the sum of everything and in kind add to a total that will forever evolve and change. I am a simple part of a bigger construct that my input will help to effect, design and even create. As the construct rolls forward I am forever a fraction of it's creation and thereby and integral part of what it may become by the infinite squaring of the effects of my existence within it. Birth and death, whether of a gnat or a universe, in such a frame of thought are at once paramount and yet little more than inconsequential happenings in an ongoing process.

From this post, and that conversation, I can tell that the other night you were talking to some buddies and were high as a mother fucking kite.Good times, good times!

Originally Posted By: OldFolksWith regard to escaping linear thinking I would think linear thought the more contrived of the two states. Linear thinking focus on the part and ignores the process, it's evolution, and the interconnection of events and matter. I am not me simply because I'm me. I'm me because I am the sum of everything and in kind add to a total that will forever evolve and change. I am a simple part of a bigger construct that my input will help to effect, design and even create. As the construct rolls forward I am forever a fraction of it's creation and thereby and integral part of what it may become by the infinite squaring of the effects of my existence within it. Birth and death, whether of a gnat or a universe, in such a frame of thought are at once paramount and yet little more than inconsequential happenings in an ongoing process. In the construct I've described would the existence of a god even matter? Suppose there was a beginning, wouldn't the process, once begun, reduce a god to the equivalence of everything else. No one thing being more important in a final sum than any other thing. Without all integers of evolution, or in this case creation, the product will never be the same. So, if that chain of thought is followed to it's conclusion, of what importance is some form of creation to the product that effects us and that we continue to effect.Mental masturbation can be almost as fun as wild wankage.

deep thoughts,time,space,beginnings and ends, I see your stoned off your ass as well.

Open yourrrr mmmind mmmmann. Let the colllors flow...

I have these thoughts, I talk these talks, just normally its int eh mountains looking at billions of stars from 10,000 feet above sea level on a clear summer night after the fire has died to embers because I am far to high to get more wood to put on it and start thinking about time and space and where I laid my pipe at cause i need another hit and I can not remember if its int eh tent or truck or on a rock or my pocket and come to think of it where is my lighter and smokes?

>>>"One more and more accepted theory is that expansion of the universe will speed up to the point that even atomic and subatomic particles can no longer hold their constituents together."

I remember now... they call it The Big Rip. Perhaps gods final fart on you to all of creation.

Some of us don't have mountains and stars... some of us have parking lots and young Mexican soccer players to look at.

I prefer the mountains and stars.summers growing old, ya gonna make a trip north west and Ill show ya some stars and mountains? not hills like you have there, mountains, real once, no soccer players or parking lots.

I won't make it out that way till the end of October and even then because the wife only gets fall break it's a short trip. It sucks to be me.