Specially for bob...

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Originally Posted By: OldFolksWhat about my contention that the personal faiths of the farmers is of little importance and that the only thing that matters is what they put in the constitution? I would say you've run out of arguments and are trying to propose that it's a piece of paper and not the people that make a nation what it is. However, if you looked at the links to some sites I provided, you'll find ample paper evidence as well. For example, Congress approving a Bible and passing the funding for thousands of them to be printed and distributed. Something known as the McGuffey Reader distributed throughout the nation for classroom use. Not the Quran, or any "holy" book of any other religion...the Christian Bible, and a work that carried forth many ideas from it. I see it would just about take George Washington to come along and stick it up your nose for you to believe it. You would rather gouge your eyes out than accept the truth. So be it...have fun.

The Bible that you speak of was not funded by congress but was in fact already printing when the guy making them requested funding from congress.
That particular bible is a very rare book these days because congress refused to fund their printing and the guy went out of business and most of the books were destroyed.
Sorry for the vagueness, referring to him as "the guy" but I'm typing this on my phone and don't have access to my papers. I'll post a more detailed account later when I get to my computer.

you're just another small, special interest group trying to hijack the constitution.show me the word "Christ" in the document, then we'll talk.Now, let me try to remember... what are the first 3 words?

OK its tuesday, and Im waiting on a call then I am out of here soon as they tell me what time they can deliver my cement, but I wanted to jump in here and kick someone, so really quick like...

One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.

The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

Yes, there were Christian men among the Founders. Just as Congress removed Thomas Jefferson's words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, they also altered his wording regarding equal rights. His original wording is here "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Congress changed that phrase, increasing its religious overtones: "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights." But we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence-- it is a historical document, not a constitutional one.

ref

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
.

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
-in Poor Richard's Almanac

"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

All of those are by ben franklin, but my favorite of his?

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

Another quote, about ben, not by him:
"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

How about Jefferson?

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

• "Notes on Virginia"

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."

• to John Adams, 1803
  .

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

• to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
  .

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."

• to Carey, 1816
  .

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-in his private journal, Feb. 1800
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"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." - to Carey, 1816
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"The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."

• to Story, Aug. 4, 1820

"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
"Notes on Virginia"
.

"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house."

• to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
  .

"Let us, then, fellow citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of a bitter and bloody persecutions."
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"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
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"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."

How about we wrap up his shit with my favorite one?

"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
"Notes on Virginia"
.

"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house."

• to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
  .

"Let us, then, fellow citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of a bitter and bloody persecutions."
.

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
.

"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."

WHat other founding father ya want to get in to?

How about Madison?

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

• "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
  .

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

• "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
  .

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
.

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
.

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
-1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

John Adams?

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
.

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
.

"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
.

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

WHat one next?

Lets look at good old cherry chopping george..

about him:
The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason.

Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]

and now a quote from George:
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

• letter to Edward Newenham, 179

From THomas Paine:
"The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.''
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"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."
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"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
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"What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."
.

"Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

His greatest? atleast in my mind is this one:
"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

How about ethan allen?
Ethan Allen, Revolutionary War Hero

"I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not."
preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Man

So Thor, all of this puts you at great odds with the founding fathers, so are you a christian, bound and determined that we returned to christian roots and have our govenrment protect it and rule us by its rules, or are you a fucking patriot?

Originally Posted By: bobalicious Now we know better.No...now there are those arrogant enough to think mankind has all the answers...when in reality we have few. But mankinds fallable answers can be twisted to mean what folks want them to...which is easy to do with something that is not 100% true. That is why there are those who embrace them for no other reason than that they can be twisted.But you attempt to evade the point made...that Paine supported Creationism vs natural selection or some other form of malarkey. For creationism to exist, there must be a creator...God. Quote:Psalms 139A passage from the Bible that Bardon claims was the founding fathers' "basis of life". He has offered nothing to support this, showed no documents and referenced no specific documents or books.Which does not mean that those references do not exist...merely that he doesn't have them to present. Remember, he does not have in his posession most of the documents in question. But studies have been done (Donald S Lutz) that show that the Bible was quoted in political correspondences more than all other references combined during the time when the founding fathers were discussing the Constitution. You can google that one yourself.  Quote:Danbury BaptistsBardon's laim that the Danbury Baptists wrote to Jefferson because they objected to the First Amendment and were afraid that it might give the federal government the right to regulate religion is a complete lie and absolutely ridiculous. Their letter wasn't even about the First Amendment, but in order to claim that Jefferson's words of "a wall of separation between church and state" was merely reassurance for the Danbury Baptists that the federal government was not going to interfere with their religious activities, Bardon has to lie about what Jefferson was replying to. Without lying about that, his interpretation of what Jefferson says in his letter doesn't make any sense.Your personal and incorrect spin has no foundation, while Barton's does. While not absolute, the odds heavily favor him being right, and you being wrong. When the "interpretation" was changed in 1947 (as Barton mentions), there must have been those folks who believed Bartons interpretation of Jefferson's original intent to be the one understood by everyone at the time...otherwise, why would they need to change it? Quote:Now, Jefferson did not date any of his letters "in the year of our Lord" and he especially never added a "Christ". What is more likely is that he signed a letter that was already dated this way, which would probably be quite apparent if we saw the whole document, so perhaps this is why he doesn't.Showing the document as a whole would not allow it to be read by a TV viewer. You are supposing with absolutely no proof at all. The document says what it says. Quote:Not one presidential document actually written by Jefferson was dated "in the year of our Lord", let alone "in the year of our Lord Christ".Irrelevant. It is what Jefferson obviously believed strongly enough in for him to sign it that way...regardless of whether it was any official document or not. Hard evidence of the importance of Christ to a founding father and a Constitutional Framer. Quote:Evangelising the Kaskaskia IndiansAnother document, finally we're getting some evidence. And yes, Catholic missionaries were sent to the Kaskaskia tribe as written in the treaty, but if the argument is that Jefferson used federal funds to send priests, Barton should have read all of Article 3 of the treaty because he left out stuff at the beginning and end of it.And whereas the greater part of the said tribe have been baptised and received into the Catholic Church, to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually, for seven years, one hundred dollars toward the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for said tribe the duties of his office, and also to instruct as many of their children as possible, in the rudiments of literature, and the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars, to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church.Oh no! Not only using federal funds to pay a priest, but also to build a church!? Well, yes, and this was allowed because this was a treaty with a sovereign nation. Unless a treaty provision threatened the rights or interests of Americans, there was no constitutional reason not to allow it, even if the same provision would be unconstitutional in a law made by congress.And as the beginning of article 3 states, the Kaskaskia Indians were already Catholics. They began converting nearly a century before this treaty after meeting a French Jesuit priest, Father Jacques Marquette, along the Mississippi river in 1673. The priest and the church were provided by request of the Kaskaskia tribe.If anyone would like to see for themselves how Bardon selected what information to highlight, go to the third video and skip ahead to 16 minutes and 35 seconds. At this point you can see that it says that they were baptised Catholics, but when Barton highlights the bit he is talking about at 16 minutes and 42 seconds, he conveniently cuts that bit out.Again, the government sent folks out to evangelize the natives to Christianity. Not Islam, not Hindu, not Bhuddist...CHRISTIANITY! All your pontification in an effort to cloud this fact is ineffective and pointless. Quote:Church in the Captiol!Now this was a cute little lie that Bardon very quickly threw in and then moved on. He says that Jefferson started a church service in the Capitol building which is not true, this decision had absolutely nothing to do with Jefferson or even the Senate.How would you know he had nothing to do with it? Where's your proof? Your word is not more valid than Bartons on this one.But...Jefferson didn't stop it, did he? I'm quite certain if he was Muslim, he would have...don't you think? You (intentionally) miss the point. The point is that this was a Christian nation, and nobody back then would batt an eye at the idea of a church service at the capital...unlike today.  Quote:Justice Hugo BlackFor this, I'm just going to quote Justice Black, as his words speak for themselves:"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'" 330 U.S. 1, 15-16.So Bardon pretty much just lied about this one. Nothing about the 1947 decision stopped people from expressing their religious beliefs. Separation of church and state does not mean all religions except Christianity.I completely disagree. You read the whole thing wrong. Black says that the government is to keep its nose out of church business...not that church has no place in the government. Think of this part of George Washington's farwell address, then go back and read it again:"Of all dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."

Originally Posted By: GrvtykllrSo Thor, all of this puts you at great odds with the founding fathers, so are you a christian, bound and determined that we returned to christian roots and have our govenrment protect it and rule us by its rules, or are you a fucking patriot?Search yourself, old man. Aren't you the one who voted for that socialist clown Obama?As for the rest, a lot of popular athiest half-truths, misquotes and flat-out lies. I could post a bunch of stuff from some of the sites I've posted links to that would show the opposite, but what's the point?

Quote:

religion and morality are indispensable supports

a statement totally devoid of any reference to any specific religion.

you know, you keep talking about how christianity is implied but then accuse everyone else of imagining that it's not. you're delusional.

Originally Posted By: bobaliciousThe Bible that you speak of was not funded by congress but was in fact already printing when the guy making them requested funding from congress. That particular bible is a very rare book these days because congress refused to fund their printing and the guy went out of business and most of the books were destroyed.Sorry for the vagueness, referring to him as "the guy" but I'm typing this on my phone and don't have access to my papers. I'll post a more detailed account later when I get to my computer. Congress paid for the distribution of 20,000 of them to schools, if memory serves. You can google that one if you don't buy it. But you're pontificating...choosing arguments you think you can win by passing up the main point altogether. The quantity of books and what ultimately happened is irrelevant. The intent of Congress was to provide public schools with Bibles. Christian Bibles. Are you getting that point yet?

Originally Posted By: unsupervised  Quote:religion and morality are indispensable supports a statement totally devoid of any reference to any specific religion.you know, you keep talking about how christianity is implied but then accuse everyone else of imagining that it's not. you're delusional. We all know the vast majority of settlers that came to this country were Christian, so what other god would Washington be referring to? You're just being rediculous because you know you have no valid argument to make.

Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: OldFolksWhat about my contention that the personal faiths of the farmers is of little importance and that the only thing that matters is what they put in the constitution? I would say you've run out of arguments and are trying to propose that it's a piece of paper and not the people that make a nation what it is.So by that logic any group of people can get together form a club and whatever the majority religious belief that constitutes the foundation of the club.The fact is they don't mention religion in anything other than an expository references in the constitution.I would still like to know why you think Washington allowed his administration to produce the Treaty of Tripoli and why the Senate would ratify it? Do you think these "pious" men were lying for the sake of expediency?

Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: unsupervised  Quote:religion and morality are indispensable supports a statement totally devoid of any reference to any specific religion.you know, you keep talking about how christianity is implied but then accuse everyone else of imagining that it's not. you're delusional. We all know the vast majority of settlers that came to this country were Christian, so what other god would Washington be referring to? You're just being rediculous because you know you have no valid argument to make. So what, it make no difference if they were or they weren't. The document that set forth this form of government only mentions religion in an exclusionary manner. The faith of the preponderance doesn't matter.

Funny, I say the same thing about your god, your beliefs, your bullshit fairy tales and your republican party.The good news is that I did vote Obama, that many others did too, and that the people that shit out your rhetoric, are no longer in power.Now if we can just get legalized, I would be a happy man.science in all things, the country, the god debate and legalization of a harmless, helpful plant.

Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: unsupervised  Quote:religion and morality are indispensable supports a statement totally devoid of any reference to any specific religion.you know, you keep talking about how christianity is implied but then accuse everyone else of imagining that it's not. you're delusional. We all know the vast majority of settlers that came to this country were Christian, so what other god would Washington be referring to? You're just being rediculous because you know you have no valid argument to make. Washington was a freemason.I would have to assume any god he referred to was in fact the god the freemasons held high.

congregation, please turn with me to the book of thor, chapter 1, verse1- I know you are but what am Inow let us prey

a very nice post, but you forgot to mention the profit

Originally Posted By: Grvtykllr Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: unsupervised  Quote:religion and morality are indispensable supports a statement totally devoid of any reference to any specific religion.you know, you keep talking about how christianity is implied but then accuse everyone else of imagining that it's not. you're delusional. We all know the vast majority of settlers that came to this country were Christian, so what other god would Washington be referring to? You're just being rediculous because you know you have no valid argument to make. Washington was a freemason.I would have to assume any god he referred to was in fact the god the freemasons held high. And the reason you would have to assume that is not because it's true, but because if it's not true then you are wrong. However, Washington was not adressing a group of freemasons, was he. Assume what you like.

WHat in the fuck does who he was addressing have to do with what he believed?

Is that not the argument here? if he was a christian?
Jesus fuck Thor, keep the points straight, you can not even argue in a straight line.

Originally Posted By: Grvtykllr

WHat in the fuck does who he was addressing have to do with what he believed?

Is that not the argument here? if he was a christian?
Jesus fuck Thor, keep the points straight, you can not even argue in a straight line.

Not that it'll make any difference to you, but just to show how far your head is buried:

President George Washington's Prayer for the Nation given at Newburg, June 8, 1783, and copies sent to the Governors of all the States.

"Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection, that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the Unites States at large.

And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and specific temper of mind which were the characteristics of Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.

Grant our supplications, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."
________________________________________________________________

"Jesus Christ our Lord"...how much more clear does it have to get for you?

if you honestly believe in your own rhetoric, then answer this; if these men were, as you maintain, strong believers in the Christian faith and wanted it to be the foundation of the nation, why would they neglect to mention it in the constitution?

I've asked that question over and over and apparently, according to thor, I'm just grasping at straw and "have no argument."