An honest question.

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Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: OldFolksDoesn't the fact that there was a process for forgiveness imply that God is not omnipotent. Maybe your post helps bob but for me it does nothing to address the need for the process. One key point for the need of a process is that we must choose to accept it in order for it to happen. God does not bestow forgiveness upon those who reject it. That's fine I accept that and can see the reason. But I don't see where that says anything about why Jesus needed to die.

the whole concept of forgiveness or asking for forgiveness seems to differ greatly from one sect of Christianity to the next (baptism, rebirth, confession, etc)A friend of mine described his faith rather eloquently (I apologize because I don't know which sect he was aligned with, for the sake of reference). To paraphrase, he said "I am a Christian because I believe that Christ died for my sins. I owe him a debt, to live my life by his teachings so as not to make his death in vein"

So do people actually know why Jesus died or is it one of those things that needs an element of interpretation? Because from what I've read here, there seem to be a few different reasons given by Christians.

Originally Posted By: bobalicious

So do people actually know why Jesus died or is it one of those things that needs an element of interpretation? Because from what I've read here, there seem to be a few different reasons given by Christians.

Have you considered the possibility that they might all be correct?

As in that he died for multiple reasons?

Originally Posted By: bobaliciousAs in that he died for multiple reasons? Perhaps more like all of those reasons, at their core value, are one and the same.

Skipping over what I believe to have broken out into an argument as they always do,I believe that Jesus Christ died to take on the sins of the world that were, is, and are to come and to save those who accept Him from... the worst fate both imaginable and unimaginable.

I spose because he said to everyone that he was God, so people didn't like that?lol idk if that's true but i went to sunday school for a bit

another though I was having... The martyred savior story is quite powerful. So much so that it exists in other cultures and religions, some even predating Christ. Then again, repeated in many works of fiction in more modern times as well as in moments in history.It's fairly well accepted that a true martyr can be more powerful in death than he ever was in life.

Originally Posted By: JapanFan14I believe that Jesus Christ died to take on the sins of the world that were, is, and are to come and to save those who accept Him from... the worst fate both imaginable and unimaginable. See, its this view that I don't get. If he died to forgive all sins that have and will occur, then does that not make sinning irrelevant as we're already forgiven for them? I can go kill someone if I want and my sin is automatically forgiven by Jesus's sacrifice?I dunno, I think thor's response makes more sense but I'm still a little unclear about it. And don't worry, I (for once) am suppressing any unnecessary rage from this thread. I just want to talk about it instead of argue over it. Its already had a positive effect, its gotten thor to admit that there is something that he doesn't know. :P

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedanother though I was having... The martyred savior story is quite powerful. So much so that it exists in other cultures and religions, some even predating Christ. Then again, repeated in many works of fiction in more modern times as well as in moments in history.It's fairly well accepted that a true martyr can be more powerful in death than he ever was in life. There exists a human need for balance...it would be hard for many to understand, or even be able to accept, the depth of God's love for us unless God had to make a great sacrifice for us. Christ was that sacrifice. Michelangelo understood this concept as can be seen on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The central portion of the painting depicts Adam and God. Note God straining for contact with Adam, and Adams half-hearted attempt to make contact with God. God wants us in a way that is difficult for most folks to deal with, much less fully accept. The death of Christ helps us to accept this.

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedanother though I was having... The martyred savior story is quite powerful. So much so that it exists in other cultures and religions, some even predating Christ. Then again, repeated in many works of fiction in more modern times as well as in moments in history.It's fairly well accepted that a true martyr can be more powerful in death than he ever was in life. That's perhaps the best explanation for the necessity of the crucifixion of Jesus that I've ever heard. The whole dying for the forgiveness of sins make no logical sense to me. But dying to impart the message of example I can appreciate and respect.

Originally Posted By: bobalicious

Originally Posted By: JapanFan14

I believe that Jesus Christ died to take on the sins of the world that were, is, and are to come and to save those who accept Him from... the worst fate both imaginable and unimaginable.

See, its this view that I don't get. If he died to forgive all sins that have and will occur, then does that not make sinning irrelevant as we're already forgiven for them? I can go kill someone if I want and my sin is automatically forgiven by Jesus's sacrifice?

We live linearly, while God does not. In God's mind (if there is such a thing as we understand it), you would already have killed the person...and so could be forgiven for it (other circumstances aside). Future, past and present are are rolled up into one.
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thanks, I do ponder these things

It's not that if you can go ahead and sin and your sins are automatically forgiven. You have to accept Him and realize who He is, what He stands for, and what He's done and recognize His place in your life in order to fully grasp it.Repentance is different from just saying sorry. If you repent your apologizing, laying down the wrong that you've done and promising you'll never do it again. If you do do it again like it was nothing then you didn't truly repent. It was just a "well...sorry"

He died to save us so, that we wouldn't go to hell. He could have just wiped us out but, he wanted to show mercy, TOLERANCE, ACCEPTANCE, etc. In the past he did wipe us out (the flood) and saved the purest family, Noah, and they repopulated the earth. So on the second time around since it didn't really work he died and three days later rose agian. In those three days I believe, there are many ideas of what happened but I believe he went to hell (1) to endure hel and (2) to minister to the people in hell because they didn't really have a chance.

FWIW, the word "tolerance" is a modern-day PC word that appears nowhere in the Bible.

yet another misunderstanding of the word. Why do you find the idea of tolerance so threatening?The word and concept date back to the 16th century and the Protestant Reformation. It was also discussed in "A Letter Concerning Toleration" by your friend John Locke in 1689So yes, it postdates the bible but is far from being a "modern-day PC word"

Since the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, that's not surprising. But the concept is certainly there - see for example Romans 14.

A Letter Concerning Toleration