Martial arts or plain fist fighting?

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Well, he was a student, but I wasn't even a white belt. He could use whatever trick he wanted, still he stuck to the old system of kicking. And trust me, Kicks are really obvious if you have to raise your knee everytime ala Tae Kwon Do style. And he was a black belt, i think something like 2 dan? can't remember the korean names. He won many Tae Kwon Do tournaments it seems, as his pictures were up all over the wall at "Hall of Fame" (should I call it Hall of Shame?. Well, As I said, people are taught to copy, not to think. That's the problem of most martial arts. E.g. Karate has it's parrying techniques, but imagine if I come in with a muay thai roundhouse and he parries it with his wrists ala Shootokan. I tell you, he's either gonna end up with a. dislocated wrist, b. a hanging wrist or c. one really f*cked up wrist.Now, in real life situation. What is better? Exchanging blows for fifteen minutes or disposing the guy in a few seconds? People may say, well "I'll use my Tae Kwon Do and do a jumping roundhouse in mid-air to his temple and knock him out". Now if I looked like Goldberg that "Air Kick" is gonna turn into a "running powerbomb" with him on the recieving end.Skill is something you get from experience. Experience is only gained if you are constantly challenged by something that is not of the ordinary. Being a five gold medallist means squat to me, as I suspect that he won't be able to use his kicks if I mount him, right?Street fighters, or better yet, undisciplined maniacs are a lot worse to fight against than professional martial artists because they could do anything and they don't possess any obvious style except brute force. I rather fight against Royce Gracie than to have a fight with an unknown man in a back alley.Trust me, what he taught you is good, but sometimes you need to see pass what he teaches you. He can lead you but in the end you are your own teacher. If you copy him, in the end it means you have failed. If you succeeded him, go beyond what he has ever taught you, now that means you are a good student. -Taison! out

Something I find odd about your post is the fact white belt is the very first belt you receive in martial arts. You have to do no forms or anything to receive it, it's your FIRST belt. So how could you not even be a white belt when it's the belt you receive upon entering the course? And along with that I find it very hard to believe, reguardless, that you just started taking the class (supposibly have no belt rank) and you take down a second degree black belt? I personally think you are exaggerating.As for people expecting a kick when fighting. Sorry but not true. In both tournaments I was in, I came out in first place, and I used plenty of kicks. Secondly, two times in my life I had defend myself against jerks in the world and neither time did these guys see what was coming. If you truely know what you are doing, you can catch anyone off guard with an attack. Plus it's not always about attacking a person to do harm to them. If you truely know what you are doign you can avoid income attacks where a lot of times the attacker does damage to themselves. PLUS if one has a chance, there are pressure points that can do the job faster.It's all about style, not if a person is a "street fighter", Tae Kwon Do, or Karate (or any other form of martial arts)

I wasn't exaggerating. Try it when sparring. When the opponent comes in to attack, tackle him, go down to the floor and keep smashing on the face. See? He said, he never faced an opponent who did something that bold, and I suspect he hasn't had much cross style training.And by saying I wasn't even white belt, I meant, me, personally, haven't had any Tae Kwon Do training at all, even though I know some techniques which I have observed in various tournament. In reply to: "As for people expecting a kick when fighting. Sorry but not true." I've been doing Muay Thai quite a while, in my camp we were trained to see incoming attacks. We were taught to imagine the body like a V shape. From this V shape, it's almost impossible to execute anything without telegraphing and most Muay Thai practitioners focuses on keeping their eyes on the legs and use their peripheral sight on the rest of the body. Imagine taking a kick every day on your body for 3 years. If you have good eyes, after 2 months or soo, you would actually start to notice patterns in body movement when the opponent is performing an attack. A kick for example, would involve either a. A twist of the hip to the opposite side with the rear leg pulling back or b. Raising the knee for a snap kick which is executed from the knee not the hip. In reply to: that you just started taking the class (supposibly have no belt rank) and you take down a second degree black belt? If you are master of TKD and you fought against a master of JKD, Karate, Judo, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, who would win? Being a master of one art doesn't make you grand champion. My training far exceeded his. He may be a 2 dan TKD, but I'm a 6 sash Krabi Krabong, 4 year Muay Thai of Chaiya and Korat principles and I have extensive knowledge of JKD. I think the odds are for me in that match.I fought a lot of people, mostly I got my ass laid down but it was from those occassions where I actually acquired techniques and learnt something from a different style. It is more of a "not what style, but absence of style" that makes you stronger. Tae Kwon Do is not mastering kicking techniques but more of a "the inability to do anything except kicking". Judo is not master of grappling but "the inability to do anything except grappling". Street fighters do not obey a style, they do not have a fighting principle. They are beyond the systematic routines and patterns of martial arts. That is why, you can not predict them. Many arts have been totally wrecked due to these fighters, like Aikido and most of the Gung Fu styles.In reply to: I had defend myself against jerks in the world If you think the term "street fighter" means some ordinary jerk on the street, you are mistaken. I'm talking about people who enjoys fighting a lot, like criminals, bouncers, gangsters, former soldiers and/or many of the UFC competitors. Just because they are street fighters doesn't mean they are untrained. They are free from style, have experience in what works, what doesn't in real life situation. They are learning at the same time as they are being pummeled at. Many martial artist are stuck to this principle of systematic routine. It is a disease of mass production instead of individual expression. If you let the students spar all day long and don't restrict them on techniques used, sooner or later, they will be doing major changes on what they learnt. I once taught Muay Thai to a friend, I taught him the basic footwork, "Yang Sam Khum", but he later changed to the "small phasic bent knee" and said, my footwork works for me, but not for him. If it was in a normal dojo, he would be punished for changing and thus mass production because students aren't taught to understand and change, they are taught to copy.If you expose an art to the reality of brutal combat like UFC, it's core would suddenly change to a much different, primal than it was before. For example, does K-1 kickboxing look anything like it's predecessor, Seidokan Karate?Well, that was a bit too much information, but if I was able to clear any questions than I have done a good job. If any of my statements raised a question in your mind, I have done a good job. I don't advice you to stop learning Tae Kwon do, but rather, go beyond the limits of your teachers, see the world as is, not what was. Destroy the limitations of your practiced art, and you got what is, thusness.-Taison! out

I'm gonna try and pick out a few spots in your posts that I disagree with.>From this V shape, it's almost impossible to execute anything without telegraphing and most Muay Thai practitioners focuses on keeping their eyes on the legs and use their peripheral sight on the rest of the bodyI agree I mentioned this in a previous post. This technique doesn't only work for the in martial arts, but also those that classify themselves as "Street Fighters". Any movement can be detected in the V technique. >Tae Kwon Do is not mastering kicking techniques but more of a "the inability to do anything except kicking". I dunno who your teacher was or the teachers you seen using TDK but that is not exactly true. I learned not just kicking moves but also upper body techniques (punches, deflections etc etc). There is MUCH MUCH more to TDK than just kicking.>If you think the term "street fighter" means some ordinary jerk on the street, you are mistakenNo I don't think any jerk on the street means "street fighter". There is a difference for sure. But at the same time I will never say someone without structure and Discipline is better than someone who has focus and structure. > If it was in a normal dojo, he would be punished for changing and thus mass production because students aren't taught to understand and change, they are taught to copy.In some Dojo's this might be true. But we were allowed to experiment in my Dojo. We were never PUNISHED unless we showed disrespect for the Dojo or the teacher (And if you were a child this went for the parents and teachers at school). We were taught proper structure and also learned that not everything we learned in class was going to be useful when defending ourselves in the real life situation, so we were taught proper protection. I think you over generalize on how TDK work. I know you are from Japan so maybe things work different over there than here in the States.About all I can see for now. I am not trying to say "You are completely wrong get out of here" just saying you cannot classify everything so simply.

->when you deliver the Kote Gaeshi (Aikido), and he comes up stares at you and give you a suplex that gives you permanent brain damage.Then whoever is doing that must have no experience, if it is leaving an opening to be suplexed you're really screwing it up.-> Another event I sparred with my Aikido black belt friend. I stuck to jabbing and didn't use any balance commited moves, he kicked me in the leg and I asked him; WTF was that? He said: Karate, cuz you don't lunge at me. See? Most arts been invented by idiots who THINKS it works but never actually put it into practice.You have no idea what you are talking about if you think a black belt defines anyone good at an art. A black belt is more of a symbol that you have mastered the basics. Aikido is known as THE hardest martial art to learn and it is. I'd like to see you throw my Sensei to the ground. It would end up with you going through a wall. And also, he has no clue what he is doing if he strikes, he's forgotten his training...->You probably gonna say, but Morishiba Ueshiba, what ever his name is, can beat me.Actually, idiots like you were known to go to the Iwama dojo and try to kick his ass to prove their Kenpo, or other Japanese art was better. He would ignore them and even if they declared themsleves the winner, who really won?If you have done HALF as much martial arts as you claim you should know already that martial arts teaches how NOT to fight. Starting a fight just to show off your Muay Thai skills is just a way to prove your better than someone else. A real master of ANY art would not have to raise a hand in defense against you because you have no true purpose.It seems like you base a better martial artist on who can beat who. But a martial artist learns that he who does not fight has won. If you never learn true emptiness from wanting to beat others up than where is the motive? You can never be as good as you could be by lusting to fight instead of striving for peace of mind...

The subject of this ancient thread is whether, if you want to defend yourself on the street, are you better off learning one of the martial arts, or just fistfighting. Which martial art is better is only relevant if you happen to get into a fight with a knowledgeable practitioner of of one of the martial arts, which is unlikely.

Some would argue that it's better to learn to box, and to spar with the strongest and craziest opponents you can find.

If you have done HALF as much martial arts as you claim you should know already that martial arts teaches how NOT to fight. Starting a fight just to show off your Muay Thai skills is just a way to prove your better than someone else. A real master of ANY art would not have to raise a hand in defense against you because you have no true purpose.Amen! Well said.

I rarely show my martial art skill off in the street, but if I do not put it into practice, it will be useless. Look at Bruce Lee, he changed his style all the time due to the fact that he sparred with a lot of styles and sometimes found somethings that didn't work let's say, his "hand immobilization" techniques at first were useful but kinda got useless against TKD, Capoera, and some Gung Fu, but he eventually evolved "hand immobilizations" to more like "body immobilizations" due to the fact he learn an american art called "Professional Wrestling". He learnt how to immobilize people be it leg, hair or neck.Same theory goes with me, the more I fight, the stronger I get. Morihei Ueshiba isn't a coward, but he was wise in not excepting the challenge, as when he finished Aikido, he was somewhere around 50, he would get really wounded if he did, Kempo is one of the dangerous arts that involves little to no body commitment. It is said a master of Kempo can punch like 10-20 times in a little space of time. Aikido wouldn't be able to do much.Some martial arts are not the same, some teaches to fight, some teaches to not. Aikido teaches not to hurt others while at the same time not to get hurt yourself. Well, some arts teaches, if he challenges you, "lay your life infront of him and see if he's willing enough to take it or you will take his" [Dan Inosanto, if I remember right]. Aikido is one of the hardest art to learn, I agree, thus it is not very effective. If it takes more than 4 years to learn that I recommend buy a gun, cuz in the end it's gonna cost the same. If Aikido, went through the basics in say 2 months, and then taught the master art in another 4 months, I think it would be very good, but no, almost every art has this stupid idea that it must take time. When I learn Muay Thai, my Kruu said "I teach you very fast, then it is upto you to perfect it". Only the real battle proven arts has this tendency to teach quickly like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Judo, JKD, Boxing, etc. cuz they know, it is not the learning that is important, it's the perfection and practice that is. You may enter a dojo to learn say Judo, it takes 4 years to gain black belt but, by 1 year you'd know almost every good techniques and you'd probably had a lot of practice and know which works and doesn't. In reply to: You can never be as good as you could be by lusting to fight instead of striving for peace of mind... Well, what many say is, you find peace of mind when in battle, there is no thought only one thing, concentration and focus, only one goal, to how to survive without injuring yourself. Victory is not worth it if you leave with a permanent injury.If I remember right, Aikido, has never been represented in any of the UFC tournies nor been present in any cross martial arts tournies, while many other "peaceful" has. I believe like many others, if you do not prove it, it doesn't work. In reply to: If you have done HALF as much martial arts as you claim you should know already that martial arts teaches how NOT to fight. I know what I have learnt, and I couldn't care much if you don't believe me. I have my own dojo, even though small, I teach willingly to those who want to learn, and I encourage individual expression. I usually take my favorite students to other dojo, dojang, kwoon so that we can learn something new. Being a teacher is not a reason not to learn.I base my art on what works, and what doesn't, thus who can beat who is the only way to find out what works and what doesn't. If you don't put the techniques and your skills into test, how will you know it works? how? Aikido, admit it or not, is lots of theories. How do I prove it? well,a) When he grabs you by the wrist you. . . [Personally, I'd never grab anyone by the wrist unless it's a ground technique like armbar or hammer lock.]b) When he chops down with the sole of the hand. . . [How many people do this move, nowadays?c) When you fall, do the "ukemi". . . [Well, why not get up normally and quickly? And, try doing the Ukemi when being caught in a Osoto-Gari, Ippon Seoi-nage, or one of the many suplexes. Usually, when you fall is when you get the holy crap beaten out of you. I think Ukemi is only useful when you trip on a rock by the sidewalk.]d) Learning the Seiza stance. . . [I find it quite amuzing that people fight when sitting on their knees. In Thailand, they say this stance is also known as the "living sandbag"The problem of Aikido is it is not updated. It may have worked 60 years ago, but it doesn't now, that many arts have aqcuired more brutal and fail-safe techniques like the clinch and the pletora of BJJ joint locks. If you want to learn an effective art against armed opponents, go Krav Maga or AMOK! knife fighting.If every Aikido dojo was to have a "randori"(freestyle sparring) every day, I think sooner or later, the art of Aikido will disappear when the students stop using the traditional techniques they find useless.I may be an idiot, but at least I know what I'm doing in a fight, and battle is where I prove myself not to you, or anyone but to myself. I teach my students that, learn the move, understand it, perfect it, and if you don't like it dispose of it, for it may work for me, but it may not work for you.-Taison! outps. . I find myself thrown through walls, to the ground, joint locked, choked, punched at, kicked at all the time. Well, I may be an idiot, but I love what I'm doing.

You pointed out a good thing I forgot. Things in Asia works a lot different than in USA. In the U.S, you may improvise and freestyle as much as you want, in Asia it's considered more or less insulting the founder, organisation and your teachers.I classify everything as I have seen it. You may be a good Tae Kwon Do practitioner, but in the end it's not your TKD that wins any battle, it's you, right? My art has no name, cuz it's not just an art, it is me. It's what I do, it's how I live, it's how I survive. Tae Kwon do may be good to you but ask yourself, are you expressing yourself as yourself or are you imitating a guy that you don't even know.I'm not against the classical thinking, but I don't find it very good. If I learnt Karate, it would not be Shootokan, Goju-ryu or Kyokushinkai, it would be my Karate, my individual expression.-Taison! outps. . From these posts, I'm starting to understand you a bit more. Even now, I'm learning from you, thus you are my teacher. so smile!

You may be a good Tae Kwon Do practitioner, but in the end it's not your TKD that wins any battle, it's you, right? 100% agree with you there >are you expressing yourself as yourself or are you imitating a guy that you don't even knowI personally always felt I was expressing myself. My teahcer taught me the moves, and than I made them my own.

I'm new here, but i randomly found this thread and I need some advive. I'm 16, 6'0, 180 pounds and I've been working out since i was 14, I've been boxing for 2 years and done some martial arts when i was younger. Personally, I don't like fighting much, but I've been jumped numerous times and mugged by 4 20 year old guys with baseball bats when i was only 13. I get in at least one fight a week, only because I'm defending myself or my friends. My school is full of gangs, and 4 guys beat my friend unconsious after wipping him in the face with metal tipped belts. Me and a friend were walking around the corner and saw my friend getting beaten. We ran in from behind and I grabbed one of the kids by the back of his shirt and pulled it up over his head (very easy with little thugs because of the baggy jerseys they wear.) after pulling the shirt over his head, i got him in an optimum clinch and pulled his head into my chest and proceeded to knee him in the face until his friends jumped on me. MY buddy connor tore one of them off of me and slammed his head into an express box. In the end two of them were on the ground and the other two ran. Ever since i can barely walk the streets at night without getting swarmed. I've been jumped twice since. if anyone has any advice on quick knockouts or fighting numerous people, it would be much apreciated.

To be honest, what you are doing is called "hijacking" but as always I'm here to help. Don't expect me teaching you anything online, cuz without a teacher who knows how to do it, it won't work cuz it'll be mostly theory and trying a technique in the battle field is the dumbest thing a warrior can do.My best advice is, if they are "mugging" you, just give them you money and tell them "I don't want any troubles, ok?" and walk away. WALK away, don't run, don't jog or do it fast, walk slowly and they won't bother you. As for the people who ambushes you alot, well, every great warrior knows that strength comes in number. Don't walk alone, bring a lot of friends if you need to get out, or better yet, don't go out when it's dark.Reading your post again, I do have an advice when facing multiple opponents I learnt from my cross-training, uh, sparring with a nearby Hapkido Dojang. When you put your opponent into a clinch and proceed to knee, I suggest that you throw him into a different direction every 3 knee, much like a tornado. When you do this correctly, it will be harder for your opponent to reach you because your victim is inbetween you and the third assailant. It sounds nice, but it has its flaws. It may not work, thus I don't recommend trying this in battle unless you're confident.As for a quick knockout? the legendary foul tactic that every tournament has banned, the groin kick. Use it. Doesn't require a lot of energy, nor skill for it to be efficient. Another advice for you is to scroll up the page a bit and you'll see some guy who posted some rules about fighting, which is fairly accurate.Next time, plz make a different thread, don't hijack this thread.-Taison! out

Sorry about the hijacking thing, but thanks for the advice

You're welcomed Anyway, if you want to learn an art, try Hapkido, it's the only art that actually focused on every aspect of a fight and try ju-jitsu when you still at it. Great locks.-Taison! out

I forgot to mention two important factors of a street fight as well.If you're outnumbered try to get into small areas like tight alleys where you can't get surrounded but don't go into dead-ends. When in the small alley or corridor, fight your opponent one at a time, but don't get surrounded or cornered. [Jackie Chan style, lol ]Also, when fighting multiple opponents, try knocking one off balance and fight with the other, then when he gets up, knock the other guy off balance. This will make it possible for you to fight one guy at a time, though you get quite fatiqued after a while. [This is taught by the Russian army and Combat Sambo]-Taison! out

In reality this does not work. First off people are not going to wait for you to stop fighting with one person to fight with you.. they don't take turns. That's only in movies.In the real world if you are outnumbered, the chance you are going to be able to deflect all incoming attacks is very slim, no matter how good you think you are. When out numbered it's best to back down when possible, there is no shame in refusing to fight.

As I said, it's mostly theory, and that's what the guy wanted. Me? I would reconsider fighting multiple opponents, but if the situation doesn't allow me to choose, I rather be in a tight area where my opponents wouldn't be able to rush in on me at the same time, like a tight alley where you have wall on your sides and the opponents lined up infront.For the Sambo techniques, it actually works, and it has been proven by the Spetznats on several occassions. It's called "Shock Engineering", where you use a part of your body or object to knock someone down by hitting hard on a vital spot, this will not only make them tumble down, they will be momentarily stunned. This will make it seem as if you're fighting many people but not at the same time. It sounds stupid, and personally, I don't think it works, but if you see a professional Sambo practitioner do it, it's amazing. Me? I'd never learnt anything like that, and for me, I'll stick to "1 on 1" duels, not "10 vs 1" scenarios. If I remember right, there's an ITF TKD school in Bangkok that teaches how to take care of 2 opponents under different circumstances, but I don't know if this is in the ITF curriculum but sometimes I think, is it possible to pull something like that off in a real fight? On one demonstration they showed the master being held by the arms by two students on the master's side, then the master did a groin kick to the guy on the left and did a wristlock on the other fellow. Donno if this would work, or maybe a new kind of TKD??-Taison! out

I think it is worth it to learn it. I'm thinking of learning it myself.