[Unsupervised alert: This is a long post. Move along if you have a short attention span or are bored by political debate.]> I know not many people will agree with me, but I am sick of murders getting more rights than me.A person in a maximum-security prison doesn't have more rights than you, unless you're also incarcerated.> I follow the law. I don't hurt or kill anyone. That really is not a hard thing to do. In my opinion, once you take someone else's life, you should forfit (sp) your rights. Killing someone is wrong, not matter if you are black, white, green, purple, female, male, gay or str8.As far as I know, every legislature has disagreed with that since the inception of the U.S. But you are entitled to your opinion.> You take a life, you should lose yours. Life is a privledge. You take that away from someone else, you don't deserve yours. Not to mention, I don't want that scum on this planet. They are a waste of a life. Why should we keep them alive? Why should they get a roof over their heads and meals and all that stuff, when we have citizens who have done nothing wrong who are homeless and don't even get that.Life is not a privilege. It's an "unalienable Right" specifically mentioned in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. The fact that the homeless are left on the street is another issue that speaks to the state of our society.> Now for those of you who say it is more expensive to put someone to death then to put them in prison for life, it isn't if you take them out back and shoot them with a gun. That is a .99 cent bullet. Problem solved.Are you advocating summary executions? It didn't lead to much justice in the Jim Crow South, or anywhere else. How many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice? A lot of innocent people have been sprung from death row the past few years. Some very close to their execution dates. Almost certainly innocent people have been executed.> Not civilized? What is murder? Is that civilized? I don't think so. If they committed the crime, then pay the price. Simple.That's the idea of lifetime incarceration. To remove uncivilized people from civil society.> If the death penalty stops 1 person from committing a crime then it has been successful. It is keeping me from doing it. So there, it works. There is nothing in this world that will work for everyone. No perfect solution.A fascist dictatorship would probably work even better. The violent crime rate (other than that perpetrated by the government) in totalitarian societies is very low. What if it stops one murder, but 10 people are wrongfully executed?> Is it cruel and unusual? So was the murder they committed. And besides, if we do it more often, then it won't be unusual anymore. lolThat's not funny. Two wrongs don't make a right. Are you saying the government should become as vicious as a premeditated murderer? I assume you're only advocating the death penalty for premeditated murder.> Sure, it isn't working as a deterant. I feel that is because you can't have something and apply it here and there. It MUST be universal and actually enforced. It will not work if you do it half-assed. Oh yeah, and lets limit the appeals. This crap about keeping them on death row for 20 years with appeal after appeal is wrong. Max of 5 appeals is more than enough. Get it over with.If you kill someone in Texas or Florida, where the death penalty is heavily used, why does it matter that the death penalty is not used in Vermont or Hawaii? When states have stopped using the death penalty, the incidence of premeditated murder did not increase. A couple of decades or so ago, the Supreme Court ruled the death penalty unconstitutional because of the uneven way it was applied. The streets did not start flowing with blood when death penalty convictions stopped.> Ok, sorry about the long post. I figured I needed to shake the bees nest a little. Don't hate me for my opinion.It sounds like your opinion is motivated by vengeance more than anything else. But I don't mind a long post. Your points were thoughtful.Once again, if you speed up the process, how many wrongfully-executed people are OK? What if your father were framed by the police? Would the rapid application of the death penalty be a problem then?
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Capital Punishment
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A person in a maximum-security prison doesn't have more rights than you, unless you're also incarcerated.How do you figure? Sure, they can't wander down the street, but they have roof over their head. Food provided for them. Computers at their disposal. They can go to school to get degrees, and the list goes on. Who pays for it? Do they? No. You and me (and society) pay for it. Can I go to school and get my degree free of charge? Who puts the food on my table? Who pays my rent? I do. I have to work for it. They murder someone, and they get it handed to them. How is that right?>> As far as I know, every legislature has disagreed with that since the inception of the U.S. But you are entitled to your opinion.Yes, that may be true. But just because the US says it is so, doesn't mean it is right or perfect. I love this country, but I do not agree with many things. >> Life is not a privilege. It's an "unalienable Right" specifically mentioned in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. They didn't create life. They are a bunch of guys who wrote a piece of paper. Sure, that is the paper we live by, but they are not God. They didn't create live. They are trying to define it, but who says they are right?>> Are you advocating summary executions? It didn't lead to much justice in the Jim Crow South, or anywhere else. How many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice? A lot of innocent people have been sprung from death row the past few years. Some very close to their execution dates. Almost certainly innocent people have been executed.No. I am not saying 5 minutes after they get sentenced they are brought out back and shot. But 20 years of appeals is a waste. Yes. Innocent people have been wrongly convicted. Again, no solution is perfect. But in a civilized society, you can't trhow away justice to save a few. I wish it didn't happen, but you can't ignore a problem because of it. Many people are getting off death row because of DNA evidence. In most cases they didn't have those tests when they were convicted. Now they do, so there will be less of the wrongfully convicted. It will never be prefect.>> That's the idea of lifetime incarceration. To remove uncivilized people from civil society.Yet make society pay for their sorry asses. I don't want to pay for scum. If their lifetime is going to be in jail, then why bother. Get rid of them.>> A fascist dictatorship would probably work even better. The violent crime rate (other than that perpetrated by the government) in totalitarian societies is very low. What if it stops one murder, but 10 people are wrongfully executed?Well, I will agree with you there. Things are different in that type of government. I don't want that many innocents to die. I am just saying there can be a balance from what we have now, and that. No plan is perfect in any direction. It needs to be about balance. >> That's not funny. Two wrongs don't make a right. Are you saying the government should become as vicious as a premeditated murderer? I assume you're only advocating the death penalty for premeditated murder.Sorry, you're right it isn't funny. I was just trying to lighten up the post. Yes, I am only talking on a premeditated murder basis. The people who have like multiple life sentences. I guess I just don't see the goverment executing a murderer as vicious. I call it justice.>> why does it matter that the death penalty is not used in Vermont or Hawaii? Because murders are not only done in Texas.>> When states have stopped using the death penalty, the incidence of premeditated murder did not increase. Yes, but they didn't go down either. And lets be honest. Even if you get the death penatly, you have so long before you are actually killed that it doens't hit the murder until a long time, or he figures he will get out of it on appeal or something. If the death penatly was enforced, severe, and everywhere, could we still say the same? We don't know because it hasn't been done.>> A couple of decades or so ago, the Supreme Court ruled the death penalty unconstitutional because of the uneven way it was applied. The streets did not start flowing with blood when death penalty convictions stopped.Makes you wonder then why they even brought it back? If it was so useless why did they bring it back? Unless the death penatly is severe, guarenteed for premeditated murder, enforced, limited to 5 appeals, and universal everywhere, I bet we would see a change. Will it stop all murders, no. But I think it would help. Honestly though, I don't care if it helps bring murder down or not. I just don't want these people on this planet anymore. I don't want to pay for them to live long happy lives. I just want them gone. They just don't deserve it. >> It sounds like your opinion is motivated by vengeance more than anything else. But I don't mind a long post. Your points were thoughtful.So, what is wrong with vengeance? Someone has to stick up for the people murdered. Their life was stolen from them? Don't you value their lives? I hope you don't value the murderer's life above theirs.>> Once again, if you speed up the process, how many wrongfully-executed people are OK? What if your father were framed by the police? Would the rapid application of the death penalty be a problem then? Well, I am not saying speed it up to the point were we are killing all out citizens. Again... there is a balance. There should be some limits on appeals. Well, I like to think that the police have better things to do than frame my father who obeys the laws. Could it happen... sure. But we can do "what ifs" until we are old. In any aspect of life, certain situations can change ones views. I can't say my views wouldn't change if my dad was framed.What about if your father was killed by someone? That person went to prison, no death penatly but you paid for him to get his PHD in prison. You paid to feed him. Cloth him. He then writes a book about the murder in prison and makes millions of dollars. Is that right? Would your views change?Hey, again, this is why our country is great. We can both have differerent views and discuss them. I enjoy having this discusion with you and respect your opinion. Thanks.
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Inmates can't vote can they? not can they cast absentee ballots? or am I incorrect?
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OK Caelamondorion, I think I understand your position. But I am still very concerned about mistakes being made. DNA testing is only useful in a fraction of cases. The fact that so many mistakes have been made even with all of the appeals and checks built into the system should give you pause.
___________________________________________________________________________blackmanoncampus said:
In reply to:
Inmates can't vote can they? not can they cast absentee ballots? or am I incorrect?
I don't think incarcerated felons can vote anywhere. In some states, felons can't vote for some period even after they get out. (In Florida it's some number of years, then you can petition to have your rights restored, or something like that.) Florida's felon list proved to be a handy tool to keep blacks from voting in some areas. There were a lot of people on the list who shouldn't have been there. They were prevented from voting in 2000. There were also people stopped from voting whose names were similar to names on the list. Blacks tend to vote Democratic, so it worked out pretty well for the Republicans. Having no shame, they tried to do the same thing in the next election.
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Nope - Inmates cannot vote.Meh - I get chewed on by my best friend when we have this discussion because she says I'm backwards. I'm not in favor of abortions but I AM in favor of capital punishment for a couple of reasons.1) I don't like paying to support some ding-dong who decided he was going to murder his wife while she was pregnant with his unborn child. I don't like having to watch my money go to pay for these people to live better than I do. I have to pay for school. I have to pay taxes, house payments, car payments, insurance, utilities, visits to the doctor and everything else that pertains to me. They can go to school with my tax money, they have computer access, and they don't have to pay one red cent for it. But I do. Am I bitter? Yes, because I love how the government spends my money, that I earned, to pay for some monkey sitting in a jail cell to get an education that he doesn't deserve when the children in my surrounding neighborhood and other places can't get an education because public schools are so poorly funded (and I even have to pay taxes for public schools even if I don't send my children to one). Which one is the greater injustice? Someone who commits premeditated murder and gets the death penalty? Or your child not being able to get an education because your precious taxes are going to pay for some slob who got away with murder and is now sitting pretty with his masters wanting out on parole for good behavior?2) This also has to do with money. I just don't want to pay for them sit in jail for 40 years. If you stole someone's life, you forfeit your own. No system is perfect and I think everyone can agree with that and yes some people who are innocent will probably die but that's the way it is. Until someone comes up with a PERFECT solution we have a current solution to a problem. It doesn't mean it's the best. But letting someone sit in jail while I pay for them to sit there is b.s. and I don't appreciate it. Get rid of 'em. And yes I'm talking about people who are commiting premeditated murder. I don't want them near me and I don't want to pay for them. These are not people I want in society or even in jail. I just want them gone. Some of my opinion is money driven but my biggest reason. My grandparents several years ago were held at gunpoint, robbed, beaten, stabbed, and these people held my great uncle, both of my grandparents, and a mentally handicapped 2nd or 3rd cousin at the time hostage all morning until my aunt's husband knocked on the back door and one of the guys answered it. My uncle took off to call the police and the guys ran for it. My cousin (16 at the time) was sitting in the back of my uncle's truck and the guys tried to get him out of the truck and into the van they were driving. The police were arriving by then and they guys took off (without Dennis thankfully). Those guys had every intention of killing my grandparents and other members of my family. The police found them, they went to court, they got off with nothing. Nothing. I can't help but wonder if they had killed someone in my family if they would've been convicted then. Probably not. Screwed up justice system? You bet. Nothing's perfect. Did I want to kill those bastards for what they did to my family? You bet. If I caught one down a dark alley? Let's just say only one person would be walking out. Justice may be blind, but I'm not. I'm human. I have faults just like any other person and it when it comes to my parents, siblings, cousins, grandparents, etc. I take the, "You just fucked with the wrong family" attitude. You're right, that may be vengance but that's why I'm not sitting on the jury.
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The problem is that it costs more money to execute someone than to lock them up for the rest of their lives. That means even more of your tax dollars not going to schools, etc.If you take money out of the system, even more people will be falsely convicted and sentenced to death.If I went through what your family did, I'm sure I would want to strange the people who did it. I don't know why they got off...that's really horrible. But that doesn't change the ethics or logic of the issue.
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It only costs more money if you're thinking of it in short term. We already have overcrowded jails and they want to build more so they house more murderers and rapists etc. etc.? Why? That's even more money spent that's not going where it should be. If you don't want to waste money on lethal injection, use the firing squad. That's still legal in Oklahoma. It's cheaper. Just put 'em out there in front with one officer and let him pull the trigger. Or better yet, let him loose in a field somewhere with the family armed that he's victimized.Someone else said it here too. NOTHING is fool proof and innocent people are bound to get hurt. But until someone comes up with the perfect solution I'm sticking with capital punishment. But at least I haven't told you what I think they should do to thieves or sex offenders who molest children or commit acts of rape, or hate crimes based on sexual preference, gender, or race. You'd really dislike me then....ahh what the hell I'll go ahead and do it. If you're a thief I think they ought to start cutting off digits. Start with the pinky and work all the way over the hand and on to the next if you need to. You commit rape or molestation? Your genitalia is gone. First time you do it is enough for me. After you had your stuff cut off with a dull rusty knife if you do molest anyone again you should just be shot. Hate crimes? Well, I think they just ought to sear your eyes with a hot iron rod. You can't see, then you can't decipher between race, gender, or see some guy or girl kissing their same sex partner and then you don't have to worry about it. I'm pretty verbal about my take on capital punishment and mostly because of what happened to my family and what happened to me when I was a kid. Am I twisted? Maybe. But I'm more on the side of the victim here because I've been there and so has my family.Yep (in case you're wondering)...I am a gun toting, Daisy May farm girl with a license to pack heat. I exercise my right to bear arms. We're all rednecks in my family.
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I think when he says that it cost more money, I don't believe it's the method rather the process. By the time all appeals and procedures are exhausted, the lawyers and courts eat up a lot of money.
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Yes, what sdp said. No matter how you slice it, the cost of the appeals process and housing inmates on death row costs more than incarcertation for life without parole.It's true that no system is perfect, but by short-circuiting the appeals process, you make the system even less perfect, if perfection means not executing innocent people.
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Okay, I can understand that part of it. But I'm still in favor of captial punishment. Call me an asshole but that's just the way of it.
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Jeeezzzzzz, I don't think you're an asshole just because we have different opinions on something.It's good to understand why we have the opinions that we have, but it sounds like you and I do...there's nothing to fight about.
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Someone really needs to create a voice command thing so people can actually hear the tone we're using. Steve, I was only being sarcastic
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Jail is for short timers, and few, if an get abused sexually in jail. Those in jail also don't get lethal injections. That is for prisoners. Prisons hold folks longer, and these types are either the attackee, or the attacker ( read the bitch and the Alpha male). Some prisoners DID give back to society, as some sexual predators were used in Kinseys report.
If you have a rabid dog in the neighborhood, you kill it. No tears shed, no loss. It is a menace, so it must be put down. Prisoners on average cost the tax payer $30,000 per year. Multiply that by the several hundreds in each prison, and that is a large drain on the coffers. Better to put these useless parasites away where the police will KNOW these useless predators can be found if need be....six feet underground. Revenge, unless enacted by me, is useless and a waste of time. It is not even about deterence, but about ridding the Earth of another bottom feeding scum (no, not talking about lawyers here).
And as a side note, we, not the government, are supposed to take care of ourselves.
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I always thought that people had to pay for themselves when they went to jail. They should.
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I never heard of that, although supposedly in China they make your family pay for the bullet they use to execute you.
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There is rarely a definitive test to find out whether someone is guilty of murder. The result is that a lot of innocent people have spent a lot of years on death row. This can be shown.
The cost of all the appeals is greater than keeping someone locked up for the rest of their lives. You can abbreviate the process, with the result that even more people will be wrongfully sent to death row. How many wrongfully-convicted people is the death penalty worth? 1%? 5%? 20%? More?
Your lust for vengeance exceeds your concern for your pocketbook.