The problem as I see it is one of economics, which makes it much more difficult to address. As long as U.S. companies are going to higher illegals, without fear of any real penalty... I might add, illegals will come here for the work. Without illegals companies are going to have to pay U.S. citizens for picking fruit, construction work, house keeping, landscaping and on and on. If companies have to pay our own people U.S. sized wages the consumer is going to have to pay more for their fruit, their homes, their hotels and their yard work (which no one in this country seems capable of doing themselves anymore). What it seems to come down to is do we want to pay "citizens wages" or "non-citizens wages" for the things we consume. We can't get everything from China, though we seem to be trying. What impact would getting rid of illegals have on the economy? Would it wreck the economy because domestic goods suddenly cost more? Would it help the economy because more work is available at better wages for U.S. workers?As for why we have to "press one for English", as long as these 12 million or so people are here and as long as they are going to be spending money at Lowe's, Wal-Mart, Blockbuster, Quick Trip and so on those places will cater to them to get what they have to spend, it's capitalism pure and simple. If we, as U.S. citizens don't like that, we shouldn't do business with those companies and we should let them know why. With regard to people collecting in communities and making their own language and culture the predominate one, that's as American as apple pie. Think little Italy, China town, little Havana, Harlem (black or Porta Rican), up until the last century the French Quarter, the numerous German farming communities or Kosher farming communities throughout the country. Many of the first generations of such communities never fully integrate with main stream society and only attain a rudimentary level of English. The second and third generation though are, more often than not, indistinguishable from main stream society.Government services that are offered in multiply languages often have to do with public safety. If we are going to employee these 10, 12, or 14 million people there is some legitimacy in making sure they can drive and have insurance or that they aren't caring disease and spreading it to our population or engaging in unhealthy practices that will promote the spread of disease even if they aren't the carrier. A buss boy or dishwasher in a restaurant that doesn't know how to properly clean the table or wash the dishes in a sanitary way because he was only trained in English is a detriment to the safety of our health. As long as the restaurant is going to hire him he should probably be able to read the instrumentation on the dishwasher so that it's functioning properly, short of that we'll be the ones getting sick.The reason ballots are printed in multiple languages is because the Constitution doesn't require them in English. It simply says if your of legal age and a citizen then you have the right to vote. That is also why, if someone is illiterate, someone must be supplied to read the ballot and explain it to the voter. Ballots are produced locally, to local demands. If there are enough people their that have trouble reading English, even if they speak in perfectly, then it's counter productive to only print the ballot in English. It's a bi-partisan issue Democrats in Arizona may want the ballot available in Spanish so more of their base will turn out, Republicans in Florida may want the ballot in Spanish so more of their Cuban American base will turn out. Finally, disenfranchising a citizen through restrictive voting requirements is never a good thing. The Jim Crow south set such restrictions (the ability to read and in French parts of the south English only ballots) much to the detriment of the blacks, who were eventually pushed out of government and the electoral process all together, even in places where they were, by far, the majority.In Mexico, while I'm not going to go look up the statistics, the vast majority of wealth in that country is held by White decedent of the Spanish lords. Relatively little of that wealth is held by what we think of as the common "brown" Mexican. The same holds true for Argentina were the "brown" people have little hope of becoming anything more than a caballero or laborer. In south Africa again the same thing. In all these countries the means of production and access is controlled, to varying degrees, by the descendants of imperial Europe. Even though they (they being those of European ancestry) may be the minority they still, all be it to lesser and lesser degrees, wheel the power and in so doing keep their place in society secure in several cases at the expense of the impoverished and disenfranchised majority.
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Amen- Email Forward
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Minute men, though my wife has on occasion called me one, I don't care for. An untrained group of armed men, many with an itchy trigger finger, I just don't think is a good thing or smart course of action. The ones I've know seem more concerned with the possibility of getting to shoot or shoot at someone, than they are concerned with actual border security. Border security, I think, should be beefed up with trained, qualified people, with the proper resources and knowledge, capable of handling all the issues they may encounter, from an illegal looking for work, to a drug smuggler or a terrorist smuggling in a canister of mustered gas or worse.I'm not sure what the best course of action is in dealing with the problems that illegal immigration causes. Maybe it's best to either deport them all or either make them tax paying citizens who have to go through the immigration and naturalization process like any other non-native born citizen. That way, they would have a rudimentary understanding of our history, governmental processes and access to some class where they can learn to read, write and speak English. Of course, if the latter course of those two possibilities is taken the whole incentive for companies to hire these people is gone, that being the below minimum wage labor.Some have proposed investing in Mexico so that paying jobs are available there. That's all fine and well but as long as U.S. companies are allowed to hire illegals without repercussion then illegals will come. I don't know, but the problems are real and must be addressed by something other than the quasi "yes we do", "no we don't" system we currently have.
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Originally Posted By: HelmsmaNTo me, the skin color thing is a weak cop out, and a simple excuse to more complex issues.I think what is missed by the preponderant of Americans is that while, yes, it is about the issues and not the color of skin (for most), the color of skin does often represent those issues and in so doing makes the issue one of race.For instance, my cousin is a full blood NDN. Whenever he goes outside the rez he gets asked if he can speak English, cops want to see his I.D. or green card or the local rednecks try to tell him to go back to Mexico. In one instance he had a cop go off on him, somewhere in Texas... naturally, because the cop asked him for his I.D. in Spanish and he didn't understand. The problem was quickly cleared up as soon as he started speaking Okie but, I think, it illustrates that the color of skin does have a baring.While people don't treat him bad, by and large, because of the color of his skin, they resent the problems that his color of skin represents, all be it mistakenly. So just because someone doesn't see themselves as better because of the color of their skin that doesn't mean they don't see the color of some else's skin and resent them for the problems or the perceived or in some cases invented problems that skin color represents.So in my example brown skin, to the majority, represents and illegal with no insurance that just crashed into grandma and put her in the hospital with no means of financial restitution. Even though the problem isn't with the color of the skin, the color of the skin does by nature, in this instance, represent the problem.So perhaps that's one reason we don't have a problem with all the illegal Irish immigrants, the issues are still the same but we can't see the people. Maybe that's why, yet to be passed, legislation keeps coming up to give them amnesty but not others, I'll leave to someone else to come up with a reasonable rationalization for that.
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Hear! Hear!Of course, if they all gained rudimentary understanding of US history, government process, and English, they'd have a HUGE leg up on most US born college graduates.
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Just my 2 cents about some of the issues raised.Racial minorities are a myth. The world isn't divided neatly into 5, 10, 50, or even 1000 different races. We all came out of Africa a good 50,000ish years ago and any differences that have emerged are largely superficial. I (being of European descent) have the same chance as being genetically closer to someone in Korea as another person of European descent. There is far and away more variation in each "race" than between the "races".Having said that I do believe there is a social phenonomen of "race" (using the word loosely as it is today). The few superficial differences that do exist are enough for people to classify others as "others". Through this classification process some "races" have become discrimated, enslaved or even exterminated by another.These historical (and often continuing) practices have lead to the current state of race relations in many bi/multi-cultural socities to become torn between "one rule for all" and trying to restore some type of racial equality.In my ideal world I would go for the "one rule for all" model. But that requires a level playing field. The demographics of many societies show how racial minorities are severly disavantaged in many areas.While it is human nature to want the best for oneself, by justifying it through a "us and them" approach I think is disgusting.Hmm what else..."Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game."Baseball bats are designed to hit baseballs, cars are designed to be driven, guns are designed to inflict damage on humans. There is a reason why America has one of the highest murder rates in the world."I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?"And women weren't allowed to vote until a 100 years-ish ago (depending on where you live). While we're at it lets not let girls be MANagers, PoliceMEN, fireMEN or anything other position that has reference to the male sex."I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion."If you feel it is wrong then don't partake in it. There is no need to degrade people for it."I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off."Dictionary.com says tolerate can mean "1. to allow the existence, presence, practice, or act of without prohibition or hindrance; permit." - So therefore you want to not allow people who are weird, different or tick you off to exist, be present, practice (whatever pisses you off)."When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability." This is true, but I'm sure that is not always the case."I believe that if you are selling me a milkshake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen,( or Canadian) you should have to speak English!"Yet when Americans go overseas they seldom seem to even attempt to speak the language. America is an immigrant countries, yet seem to want to crush all culture that arrives there."My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours."Same goes again."We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and riskour lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations."Defending their freedoms? Yeah right! It seems like you only like parts of your constitution, like the part which lets you have your guns."I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building."Thank God/Allah/Jehovah/Buddah/ that Bill Gates can think a bit less selfishly than you. He donates a pretty large chunk of his money to charity, if only the rest of corporate Amerrica could do the same."I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. Idon't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!"Freedom only when it suits you?"I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people,and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be "African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. I am proud to be from America and nowhere else"Don't even know where to start on this one...And I agree with another post I saw - egotistical is the exact word that sums this up.
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Originally Posted By: thorOriginally Posted By: JapanFan14I wanna go to New Zealand! I've heard it's a great place to live, but difficult to get permanent residency status for a foreigner to stay there. New Zealand isn't that hard to get into. We take on a lot of refugees and have a skills-based immigration scheme.
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New Zealand or Australia
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If anyone does come to NZ I'll give you a tour around our capital, Wellington.
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Originally Posted By: JoeBloggsOriginally Posted By: thorOriginally Posted By: JapanFan14I wanna go to New Zealand! I've heard it's a great place to live, but difficult to get permanent residency status for a foreigner to stay there. New Zealand isn't that hard to get into. We take on a lot of refugees and have a skills-based immigration scheme. It seems it just depends on what game one is willing to play...if they don't have a particular skill or aren't a refugee, that is.
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We could have a civil union! That solves the problem.
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ooh now I know who to come to :smile: