Gay Married.... How to keep wife satisfied?

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Quote:complete honesty does not require complete disclosure. That's ridiculous, sorry! Marriage is about complete honesty and trust. What you are about to do is dishonest and not to mention disrespectful to this woman.Again, I am not sure where you "Morals" come into play, but I'll repeat what i said in my last post:  Quote: I just don’t understand where you can think lying to this woman is acceptable but being whom you are is so condemnable How would you religion feel that you are deceiving another one of Gods children, putting them in a marriage built on lies? I personally would rather live alone than put another human being through what you are about to put this lady through.Personally you should feel ashamed. You might think I am harsh for saying so, but when it comes down to it what you are about to do is shameful.

I do want to make something clear. I am not saying what I am saying because I want you to be gay or whatever. If you want to hide and deny part of who you are, that's your prerogative; no one can decide that for you. My issue with you is you dragging another person into you lies and deception. That to me is the most disrespectful thing a person can do. You need to step up and be a man and be honest with this woman you intend to marry. If she loves you as much as you think, she'll accept you for who you are. But hiding this from her and in turn deceiving her you are nothing than a boy in sheep's clothing.

Jase, do you think you would feel comfortable being more open and forthright about your situation and the details of it to maybe get more relevant responses. Think about it.As intertwined as the two seem to be, I think a religious argument only serves to distract from the problem at hand.You said that you view being gay as a personal thing that you don't need to discuss with your soon to be wife, in part because it's "your problem" and because your people just "don't talk about it." Now you don't need to answer but are you sure your being honest with yourself? Spouses generally share their problems and support each other in those problems, that's what builds the relationship and makes it strong, ...being there for one another. Don't you think someone who cares about you would want to know your problems if nothing else to help with them. In binding their life to you and partnering with you don't you think they deserve to know your handicaps in the relationship. Ya know this is not a small thing, while I completely agree that a successful relationship is built on many other things than sex, this isn't about sex. This is about a very large part of you. Something that you do have to deal with one way or the other. While "complete disclosure" is certainly not a requirement of marriage I do think something as important as this is to a relationship begs for honesty and forthrightness, less the gaping hole in your sole will be evident and she will always wonder, more than likely blaming herself... and I know you don't want that. Be honest with yourself, you don't need to answer anything in public here but what is it you fear the most about letting her, or anyone, know? Is it loss of her love, loss of your standing in the community, loss of parental affections, loss of income, loss of the love of God? Try separating all those things out in your mind. Think about those fears separately and deal with them one at a time (in your mind and maybe here). There's no rush. Just think about those things. Is it really that she just doesn't need to know and you don't talk about it, or is there more to your desire to keep this from her? Is there just a chance that at least part of it's fear? If fear is a part of it, what is it you fear the least? Deal with the easy one first.Do you think maybe the reason you can't be honest with her is because your not being honest with yourself? I mean, how could you be honest with her if you are lying to yourself. Just ponder on it for a good long while.You don't need to answer any of this it's just food for thought. Please know though, if you do want to answer or just talk, I'm here to listen.Be certain that your being honest with yourself.

I have to agree with you, and I would never make this about god.

Originally Posted By: Jase starfish: i do not really care to debate you on your issues. That you do not wish to address the issues I’ve raised does not surprise me at all. You cant talk your way out of the fact that your future wife’s prerequisites in marriage are as important as your own, or that the same Bible you (supposedly) subscribe to teaches against deliberate deception, and teaches that we should treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves, and also teaches that sinning in the heart (i.e. fantasising about someone other than your partner) is considered as serious as committing the physical act.This is your own Bible we’re talking about, your own guide-book of supposed “standards of morality” that you intend to dismiss the moment they do not suit you. It seems you need to either take your head right out of that Bible or put your head right in it, your half-in/half-out pick-and-mix approach to Biblical morality is a typical example of the type of hypocrisy that turns so many people off organised religion.  Originally Posted By: Jase Only one thing I should communicate to you: complete honesty does not require complete disclosure. End of discussion. Nonsense, clearly. Dishonesty can be committed in two ways: by promission and by omission. Omitting to tell a truth is as equally dishonest as telling a lie, and that is a fact, whether or not it suits you to accept it. At this point this discussion just feels utterly pointless. A person who agrees to share their life with you and carry and raise your children is giving you the biggest gift they’ll ever give to anyone and you’re happy to make a mockery and a charade out of it at their expense. Since that is an example of your “standards of morality” I just thank God yours and mine diverge so wildly. I can’t imagine how anyone could square with their own conscience the thing you intend to do to another person, and I'll tell you something else Jase - I'm glad I can't. I think you should pay careful attention to this remark, as 99% of the common sense on this thread rests in this single line: Originally Posted By: NtroducingMyself Matter-of-fact if I lived in a society where I could not be who I am, I’d be moving. Maybe someday you’ll take heed of it and break out of the prison you’ve imposed upon yourself. That’d be nice for you; too late for your wife of course, but, oh well, since when were her feelings of any concern?

Originally Posted By: GrvtykllrI have to agree with you, and I would never make this about god. Nobody needs to make it about God Chase, the OP has already done that. His religion views homosexuality as sinful and I've no doubt that is of considerable influence in the forming of his view.

two things "Nobody needs to make it about God Chase,"I really fucking hate that Iv been called chase my whole life, there is no s its an nce not a se.Second, THe OP belives in god, and wotn seek help through ihs church, but his reasons for doing so are personal, not about if god told him to or not and the whole god vs gays isa circular debate that never ends, its bullshit and has no bearing on what he does.Its not abotu what god says is OK its about what hte OP feels and using god against him just because he believes in god is a shitty tactic.God can not be proven as a fact, it has no place in a argument of facts. personally Id wipe my ass with a bible if I had one on hand instead of toilet paper.Fuck god and his opinions, this is about people and feelings and finding a way to live his life with who he is and what he desires, not what god said is good for him.

I couldn't put it any better myself Chance. So I'll just say I completely agree.

Originally Posted By: Grvtykllr

two things "Nobody needs to make it about God Chase,"
I really fucking hate that Iv been called chase my whole life, there is no s its an nce not a se.

Typo alert! - Excuse me! ChaNCE it is, lol!

Originally Posted By: Grvtykllr

Its not abotu what god says is OK its about what hte OP feels and using god against him just because he believes in god is a shitty tactic.

First off; the OP quoted a scriptural passage from Genesis a couple of pages back in support of his own Biblically based beliefs that females are pure and males are not as regards sexual partners for men. If a person is going to quote the Bible at me in support of their argument and then display hypocrisy regarding the practical application of its contents to their own life they can expect to be called up on Bible teaching - that is not "a shitty tactic" in my view - that's what I'd call common sense.

And secondly; I notice you've changed your tone significantly since the early pages in this thread when you were condemning the OP's intentions as: "Fucking disgusting". You either think it's fucking disgusting or you don't; I don't understand how you can change your view so quickly, maybe you find yourself easily swayed by popular opinion, but I don't. My views are my own and I don't change them to slot in with whatever the majority happen to be expressing.

This is the portion of your earlier post I'm referring to Chance, by the way:

Originally Posted By: Grvtykllr

to lie to a person and have kids with them and all the time they think you love them and are attracted to them the full time knowing your not, is fucking disgusting.

Your seem to be still offering your opinion based on presumption that you know and understand everything that is going on in this guys life and head.My statement that arguing about God is a distraction from the problem at hand was directed not just at you but Jase as well, and anybody else that cares to careen off into that chasm.

thank you! that honestly does drive me batshit.and heres the deal on why I swiveled directions.He is going to do what he does, I still think its wrong to do it, I think its totally wrong, but, rather than focus on why its wrong, that is getting nowhere with him, why not focus on what he can do ?hes made up his mind, he will do it, no amount of arguing will change that, maybe he can be steered to making a better choice in who to marry, and if he finds a woman thats in the know and is Ok with it who the fuck are to say its wrong?There are a lot of couples that dont do the sex bit and are happy with each other.If hes being honest and finds a girl accepting of it why kick him? if it works for them both it sure as hell shouldnt be a problem for us.Im still thinking honesty is the best policy, but if he is honest and shes fine it its a working relationship with nothing unhealthy about it.He wants a wife and kids, hes going to have them. Rather than focus on whats wrong with it I prefer to try and be more open minded and focus on what he can do to make it a livable condition for both of them.Ever hear you get more flys with honey than with shit?No one responds well to a negative argument, it only pushes them further away and pisses them off more.Jase comes across as someone already stressed enough about his life, he doesnt need to be kicked any more, hes had enough and is trying to find a solution to his problem, not find a way to avoid what he feels.Read the whole thread again, its obvious that he cant or wont change his mind, so whats wrong with a bit of compassion and helping him out instead of just repeating the same shit over and over.do what you always did and youll always get the same results.part of the point of this board is compassion and understanding. Hes not breaking laws,hes not threatening to kill people or blow up the capitol, hes trying to find a way to make his life work for him.Trust me, anyone that knows me knows its impossible to sway me just because the popular vote says Im wrong. Iv charmed more girls out of their panties than youv owned panties in your entire life time. its called switching tactics. I still believe what i said earlier, but its not working, its time to try to find a different solution instead of just keeping to hit him on the nose with a rolled up paper telling him he is wrong.

Chance I would agree with you but he has also said over and over again he will refuse to tell this lady that he is gay. I have little compassion for someone who's going to screw around with another persons heart, not to mention lie and deceive a person for their own personal gain regardless how much it's going to hurt her.Basically he came to this site to ask how he can lie and deceive a woman so he can get what he wants, which is a family (which he could get obtain in a homosexual relationship where he would not be hurting another human being as I stated earlier). In my opinion that's not what these boards are for.

Originally Posted By: Grvtykllr

Second, THe OP belives in god, and wotn seek help through ihs church, but his reasons for doing so are personal,...
...Its not abotu what god says is OK its about what hte OP feels and using god against him just because he believes in god is a shitty tactic.
...personally Id wipe my ass with a bible if I had one on hand instead of toilet paper.

Chance (is it your real name?), thank you for your post... I never said that I refuse to seek help within my "church"... in fact, I have done so, not exactly from "church elders" - I am afraid their response may be too impatient if not aggressive - but from trained counsellors who belong to the same "church". They do in fact have a full-fledged program that allegedly help you "treat", if not "combat" homosexuality. I have been through the initial phases of it, and I must say that I do believe that you can accomplish much IMPROVEMENT on the program. The program is very long and enduring and requires commitment on the part of the patient as well as the counsellor... The idea is that, through a series of punishment and reward exercises, you would have to channel your sexual energy elsewhere, when the doors to same sex are completely locked and the keys thrown in the ditch. In any case, what is relevant here is that one of the final steps of the program is to actually get married, and no where on it is there a requirement to disclose your "past" temptations to the future wife. I really doubt it, big time, that every married person discloses every thought or temptation that goes through their minds to their spouses. That would be silly and unrealistic. In fact, I believe that one of God's blessings is that we are able to hide what goes through our minds from others, lest it hurts them unnecessarily. This is no lying. This is not telling anything other than the truth. This is being selective in what we disclose.

I was asked time and again on this thread, what my religion is and where in the world I am located. It was exactly for the language you (or others) use/would use about God and the Bible, in this case, that I have refused to answer, with all due respect to your opinion.

well Im on your side as to him needing to tell her, but im on his side as to his over all mental and physical health, and the end result being his coming out of this ok in the end and jase, yes my name is Chance, Iv had it since 1971, long before it became popular to name your kid chance and long before homeward bound was written.
I agree also that you have th right to keep your name, your version of god, and where you live all private.
Some of us choose not to, others keep it secretive.

Did the people offering the "treatment" program not address any of these things that are now a concern to you? What did they say would be the end result upon your completion of the program? Didn't they give you any tools to help you throughout your life? How much did they actually address sexual arousal, or did they? Do you feel comfortable telling us more about the program?

Originally Posted By: Grvtykllr

if he finds a woman thats in the know and is Ok with it who the fuck are to say its wrong?

I'd never in a million years put any couple down for making that choice in their marriage Chance, never. How two people (married or otherwise) decide to conduct their own union is their own business. The point here is that it is not a couple doing the deciding; it is, as Ntro has just pointed out, one person doing the deciding for both of them and there's just no other way to view that as far as I'm concerned other than wrong.

I do get what you're saying about going round in circles on the same issue and ending up feeling like you're banging your head against a brick wall; still though, I reckon if you found out the woman in question was your sister or daughter you'd be back to "fucking disgusting" pretty damn fast.

& Oldfolks; I am basing my views on the same thing everyone else is basing theirs on, which is the OP's own words on this thread.

Anyway, I think I've had enough of this discussion. To be honest I am finding it saddening and depressing that choices like this are presumed by some to be acceptable in this world.

"I really doubt it, big time, that every married person discloses every thought or temptation that goes through their minds to their spouses. That would be silly and unrealistic"

I agree, but we are not talking about that you had a beer at lunch or jerked off to some other girl or thought 'what a bitch' when she was yelling at you. its not a small thing its a major complication.
I dunno man, so much shit, so many ideas and so few options, its a bastard of a case.
I will say though that what you talked about ammounts to aversion therapy, you will never be able to cure being gay, to go through with that course, I think, would only add torture to the rest of your life. If you train yourself to shy off of what it is that actually is felt, I cant imagine ever being happy or content.

your right that iM against it, but what i feel isnt important, the matter at hand is helping another human being and he obviously isnt going to change his mind, there is no point to continue kicking him.I think its a horrid thing to do to another person, I also dont think its worth beating the poor bastard to death!We all said the same thing, it changed nothing. Its time to find something new that might help.For the record though, I know what boys want, if it were my daughter or sister, Id be much more content if they told me they were lesbians than if they said they found a wonderful man they were going to marry.trust me, dont call bullshit on that one, theres tons of shit I keep off these boards, I know that because Iv already been down that road.

Originally Posted By: OldFolks

...are you sure your being honest with yourself?

yes.

Originally Posted By: OldFolks

Spouses generally share their problems and support each other in those problems, that's what builds the relationship and makes it strong, ...being there for one another. Don't you think someone who cares about you would want to know your problems if nothing else to help with them. In binding their life to you and partnering with you don't you think they deserve to know your handicaps in the relationship.

i don't know.

Originally Posted By: OldFolks

Ya know this is not a small thing, while I completely agree that a successful relationship is built on many other things than sex, this isn't about sex. This is about a very large part of you.

i am trying to work on this very large part of me to be able to meet her expectations for as much as possible.

Originally Posted By: OldFolks

While "complete disclosure" is certainly not a requirement of marriage...

i am glad you agree to as much.

Originally Posted By: OldFolks

less [you mean: lest] the gaping hole in your sole will be evident and she will always wonder, more than likely blaming herself... and I know you don't want that.

that's what scares me. however, i will always provide her with a way out of the relationship, if i fail.

Originally Posted By: OldFolks

what is it you fear the most about letting her, or anyone, know? Is it loss of her love, loss of your standing in the community, loss of parental affections, loss of income, loss of the love of God?

none of the above, except for maybe/partially loss of my standing in the community, but that's a minor issue. again i say it is (a) not a subject of discussion at all in my community and (b) i do not think it is relevant. PLUS, i do not think or feel that having homosexual thoughts is what makes me. I do not look or act gay. i do not want to be in a gay relationship, although i find some men attractive/affectionate. if i came out and said, hey i am gay, i would be presenting to the world/my community a new person that i am not even sure is me. i think that being gay involves wanting to live and make a family with a person of the same sex, as ntroducinghimself has described. i do not want that. and, if i did want that more than to be married and have kids, then i would choose a "single, sexless life of loneliness" over the solutions that ntroducing and star suggest/plan/practice.

i do not feel that i am being dishonest with myself, scotty.