Athiests try this on for size...

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Quote:except that we've invented asphalt.Oh thor, you great lunk, I said that asphalt occurs naturally. We didn't invent it. Quote:You can't even (or simply refuse to) fathom the possibility that the "organic soup" hypothesis remains not only unproven, but unsubstantiated as well. Quote:I should start by saying that chemical evolution (the evolution of biochemical systems) is a much less well-attested area than biological evolution. We can observe biological evolution, we know much about mechanisms, and it explains a wealth of observations. Chemical evolution, on the other hand, is still mainly hypothesis and speculation. It is a promising area, with some interesting hints in cellular biochemistry, but still very much in its infancy. Quote:An acceptance of current hypotheses of molecular evolution is not essential for anyone. They are largely speculation, and may prove to be quite wrong.

First off, you said that atheists say that nothing had a part in the creation of life. This is a falsehood. If I am to go by the definition that I believe bob gave, then I am an agnostic atheist, and by no means do I believe that nothing had a part in the creation of life. It could be some sort of God, or just some really advanced race. Who knows? I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was any of these three.Second, expecting it to be simple to create life in a lab if the same thing happened before on earth is simply ignorant. Compare the size of the lab and the size of the earth. The earth is huge, so certain unlikely events are trillions or more times likely to happen in that situation than in a lab, especially since these processes were going on for much longer than they can go on for in a lab.However, I do not see the relevance of asking thor where heaven is. I can see asking him to show who/what/where/whatever God is as a comparison between his request (though I think his request would be easier to accomplish, though it's still an amazingly hard thing to do), but not the point of asking him where heaven is.Also, thor is right when he says it's debatable whether or not a virus is alive. One of the commonly accepted criteria for life is that it must be able to reproduce on its own, which is not something that a virus can do. But still, being able to essentially create a virus is a huge step in the right direction.As far as atheism being a religion, it really depends on your definition of religion. With the way of defining it that I think you have in mind, I'd have to say that gnostic atheism is religious while agnostic atheism is not (or not very much so). To go so far as to call what was taught in school a lie (well, what is taught now) is going too far in my opinion. Yes, it is definitely an oversimplification, but that is because at younger ages, the finer points can't be grasped very easily; you don't see third graders being taught about axioms. Later on in education, these finer points are shown more carefully, though, unfortunately (mainly for science at least), it seems that they can't always be shown until college level courses are reached. Still, I think that a lot of these fine points can be taught with more frequency than they currently are.As far as intelligent design goes, if it is true, I would personally think that it is far more subtle than it is portrayed as. So subtle that it would be possible to do in the lab one day (when we can do very large scale experiments). Because of this, I think it is far more beneficial to teach the most plausible explanation(s) that have scientific backing (and yes, natural does have scientific backing, but maybe it's not as much as you would like) and note that there is always some doubt. I think that the educational system does an ok job of this now, but it could be much better.

Yep its isnt right to ask him to show where heaven is cos it doesnt exist..........and he is denying everything anyone is posting on evolution.........it is rather annoying to see so many posters posting stuff and he is just sitting there shaking his head.I would have rather preferred he never started such a thread......cos these topics always cause an uproar or a heated debate.A simple and peaceful discussion would have been better.

Well, with Thor its impossible to have a rational debate because of his unwillingness to accept anything outside of his... wait... do you hear that? It... it sounds like a very distant "lalalalala" noise...

'zactly. Which is why the constant battle against his 'always correct' attitude is one dead horse I ain't beating. Or is it, he's a troll I ain't feeding? The world may never know.

Originally Posted By: Ineligible Quote:except that we've invented asphalt.Oh thor, you great lunk, I said that asphalt occurs naturally. We didn't invent it.It certainly didn't get up, hold a conference, and decide to migrate to portions of the land to create long, winding paths around mountains and through valleys, did it? No. I'd say us humans had something to do with what Hienze would have seen had he looked out his window. It isn't asphalt until it is collected together (or synthesized) as necessary before use. Quote:You can't even (or simply refuse to) fathom the possibility that the "organic soup" hypothesis remains not only unproven, but unsubstantiated as well. Quote:I should start by saying that chemical evolution (the evolution of biochemical systems) is a much less well-attested area than biological evolution. We can observe biological evolution, we know much about mechanisms, and it explains a wealth of observations. Chemical evolution, on the other hand, is still mainly hypothesis and speculation. It is a promising area, with some interesting hints in cellular biochemistry, but still very much in its infancy.I already thanked you for admitting this in the beginning of your posts. I guess you missed it. Hienze may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but his position on this matter is correct. So why is it you attack Hienze's position instead of the position of those who accept this "organic soup" as a fact (as most athiests do) when there exists no substantiation for it? Why do you skip over the obvious falacies in such a claim? (Who are you trying to impress, and why?)

Originally Posted By: CiderFirst off, you said that atheists say that nothing had a part in the creation of life. This is a falsehood. If I am to go by the definition that I believe bob gave, then I am an agnostic atheist, and by no means do I believe that nothing had a part in the creation of life. It could be some sort of God, or just some really advanced race. Who knows? I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was any of these three.I don't remember if I used the word "nothing"...however, my meaning was "nothing outside of natural processes". The point really isn't what athiests do or don't believe...that's kind of a side-bar to the whole thing. It's the widespread acceptance that life began naturally by a process that has never been proven or duplicated. It just so happens many an athiest bases their disbelief in a creator, based on this fallacy. Quote:Second, expecting it to be simple to create life in a lab if the same thing happened before on earth is simply ignorant. Compare the size of the lab and the size of the earth. The earth is huge, so certain unlikely events are trillions or more times likely to happen in that situation than in a lab, especially since these processes were going on for much longer than they can go on for in a lab.If we were trying to create a whale, I would tend to agree. But that's not the case here. Quote:To go so far as to call what was taught in school a lie (well, what is taught now) is going too far in my opinion. It is a lie in that it is an untruth that is not only allowed to fester by the school system, but, as it is taught, is couched in such a way as to make students believe that we will very soon be able to create life of our own because we understand the processes so well. In spite of Saya's claims, we are not there yet...and in my opinion, are nowhere near there yet. In fact, we may well never get there.

Wow...how did I miss this one. Originally Posted By: SayaAtheism is not a religion cos it doesnt follow any rules and regulations or any sort of "revelations" as you do. Who made you the definer of religion for all? Quote:Atheists dont follow the tail of a guy and think of him as their saviour or leader. They follow many things...mostly works of other men. Almost with a reverence. Quote:Atheists apply their creativity to areas that can useful.......not imaginary stuff like you do.What you call "imaginary stuff" can be more useful than anything mankind has ever created (or ever will)...depending on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to accomplish the goal of making a longer-lasting automobile tire, then, yes, the Bible will not help you. However, if you're trying to dupe the world into believing mankind is responsible for the current rise in temperature the planet has been experiencing for the last hundred years or so (currently referred to as "Global Warming), then athiestic creativity might actually be quite useful...just as it was in getting a generation of kids to believe in the very subject of this thread. Quote:If the text books teach lies then why dont you join "Flat earth society" you will fit in well with them.Ah...I see...never question a text book? Quote:I already gave you the offers.............choose one or shut up. I reject your offers as unrealistic...from both sides of the deal. I also reject your options. Do you really expect me to let you tell me what to do after insisting you won't do what you erringly believe I'm telling you to do?

Thor, you are an intersting character. You frustrate me but I like you. I often find myself wondering what you really believe. I've asked you some fairly simple and straight-forward questions that you will not answer (please forgive me if you did and I wasn't online for a while and missed them)
I don't know why you keep poo-pooing science then offer up christian based pop-science web sites as some type of proof of something. You have many beliefs, political, social and religious. It would do you well to admitt to your self that those beliefs are yours and yours alone... as are everyones'

The simplest forms of life are more complex than anything that we have created, so it is definitely not a simple task. It is completely the case here.Neither me nor any of my friends nor anyone I know has ever been led on to believe that we could create life easily as our time as students. I have no idea where you're getting this from.

Don't you see it? It's that string of words...reaches up and grabs it;squirming to be free in my hand floating up in the sky.Either way, I need outta here. I've made the decision, it's having a negative impact on my health. Bob, Pete, Saya, I wish you the best luck in this endeavor. I could keep pointing out flaws in logic, and where he avoided "this" and "that" because he didn't like what we said, or he had no argument against it. But I won't.

Quote:I already thanked you for admitting this in the beginning of your posts.And yet you attacked me for not saying it. thor, some of your thinking is quite disordered. Quote:So why is it you attack Hienze's position instead of the position of those who accept this "organic soup" as a fact (as most athiests do) when there exists no substantiation for it?I've already explained that - it's the lies. I don't like lying. Quote:Who are you trying to impress, and why?Do you only say things to impress someone?

Saya has also found it to be too much for her health, and I think it's a strain on us all.

I'd be more than happy to continue but thor seems to be too afraid to reply to me. Quite sad really...

ya big bully!

I intimidate him with my huge tinker toy collection...

Or is it the strawberry ice cream?

Oh I wanna play with your huge tinker toy collection!

Originally Posted By: bobaliciousI intimidate him with my huge tinker toy collection... ...that's funny; I was almost certain it was a erector set.

Hello All, I am new this posting stuff in here, and I also know there are teens who frequent this site.. so I suppose I need to curtail my use of language.But, after reading through some of the posts on this site, and ALL in this thread, I have to comment to you, Thor, of course. You have a very, smarmy attitude about yourself. You site logic after logic after logical quote, and I see nothing of merit or of your own thoughts, or words. And you, who are a supposed Christian.... aye, my brother... we can certainly go around and around on that! You chastise, bash, mame, mall and utter grotesque to almost everyone here... but me, thus far. I have to ask.. where DID you grow the balls to that size? Are you really that super centurial and have to put everyone down around you to build yourself up? Myomy, what a strange, sad, little man you really are.