Three Things About Islam

---

Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: IneligibleWhen looking to bolster your case, you seem to look for people who already strongly support your own views. The result is that you have put up a number of liars and nut-cases who offend principles of truth and reason, and thereby end up weakening your argument in the eyes of others.Spoken in classic liberal format. Instead of attacking the position, you attack the people...and the biggest liars are always the first to call others liars. Keep that in mind next time you think about pointing the finger at somebody else.As I said, I don't agree with everything he says...but what he says concerning Islam is spot on. And you can't deny it, or you already would have. Are you serious?!? Are you going to call me a liberal if I agree with him? Seriously...there are ways to make a point and then there are ways to drive people away. I have to be honest, there are times when you are arguing something that I actually agree with, but I'm actually cringing at the way you go about it. All he is trying to say is that there might actually be well respected, even-handed people who are agreeing with you. But you can't be lazy. You can't just keep pulling out crap from people that you know others here have no respect for and expecting them to read/watch them with an open mind. There is a such thing as credible source. Or are you choosing your references in hope that folks here will question them so you can in turn call them liberal idiots?Maybe if you would step back a bit and look at things clearly and objectively, you would see that folks here, whether they be liberal, atheist, muppets, or whatever, are willing to engage in fair conversation with you. I've seen Bob attempt it several times. But you always respond by whacking them over the head and calling them names. That's not necessary. And you've sort of painted yourself into a corner to where you aren't going to be taken seriously. And what really pisses me off, Thor, is that I have to fight hard to not be thrown into that corner with you. I'm a Christian. I'm a Conservative. And people here know these things about me. And you really piss me off sometimes when you make me feel like I'm going to be painted with the same broad brush.Just stop it already.

damien...long story short, if you're going to be a Christian, you can't be so concerned about what other people think. I sympathize with how you feel, but you're going to have to deal with your own issues and stop foisting them on others. You need to make a choice about where you stand on an issue and voice it...based on what you believe, and not on what you think others will think.

Right. What you got out of that is I care more about what others think then I do about truth. Wow.And you're basically saying that you're more interested in calling others names than you are bringing them to any truth.Sigh...I can't help you anymore Thor.

thor, I know some small churches teach that - but Paul had a different view. He cared very much what other people thought. He told the Corinthians, "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1Cor 14:23).Paul also said, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." (1Cor 9:19-22).Doesn't that suggest a different attitude?

Originally Posted By: Ineligiblethor, I know some small churches teach that - but Paul had a different view. He cared very much what other people thought. He told the Corinthians, "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1Cor 14:23).Sounds strange to me since I use the KJV, but a believe (if it's the passage I'm thinking of) that Paul was making a point that there needs to be an interpretation whenever tongues were spoken in church...not that we should care if others think we're mad. Do you choose to please man or God? Quote:Paul also said, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." (1Cor 9:19-22).Doesn't that suggest a different attitude? No. It suggests to me that Pual was willing to meet people where they are at...to go to them wherever they are at. But this does not mean compromising your Biblicaly principles in order to do so. One does not become a pimp just to be able to minister to hookers.

No question about not sacrificing Biblical principles. But being offensive is not a Biblical principle, and it opposes the work of God. It is not a precondition of pleasing God that we must displease men. Indeed, we should seek to please men as much as we can, consistent with duty to God. That is part of loving one's neighbour.1 Cor 14:23 in KJV is "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" - not very different from NIV, indeed a bit gutsier. It seems clear that Paul did very much care if people thought Christians were mad, or he wouldn't have made the comment. Indeed, he obviously assumes that his readers in Corinth will also take for granted that being thought mad by unbelievers would be a bad thing.I fully agree that Paul was willing to go to people where they were at. And so should we. Consider Paul's speech in Athens (Acts 17:22-31). It starts:Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you."See how he says that the Greeks already worship God, but just don't know Him properly?

I'll add Luke 2:52 "And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

Seems that being seen favorably by men was pretty important to Jesus, or at least Luke.

I also echo your thoughts on being offensive. There are those, and I've met too many of them, who believe that to be Christian means to be offensive. That is not supported anywhere and, in fact, there's evidence to the contrary. I think what is happening is that these people are taking the idea from scripture that the Gospel offends and using it as permission to be offensive themselves.

We are all memebers of the body of Christ...but to assume we are all to play the same part as one another is to be ignorant of Paul's words concering this, at best. Don't expect everybody to play the same role as you...as if it's the only valuable role God has for us. To believe so is, as I've said, to be ignorant of the Bible's words on this...and perhaps, in some cases, even arrogant as to ones own role at that of being the most important one.

Some views on the ground-zero mosque that ring true:

1

2

...and for Inegligible:

!

Note that, as an ex-Muslim terrorist, he would know much more about what Islam is all about than you or I...though, interestingly, he agrees with my point of view. The only remaining question is: How determined are you to keep your head buried in the sand?

I wonder how you decide something 'rings true', thor? Calling two blocks 'a few yards' doesn't ring true to me. Those videos sound like a polemic rather than an attempt to find the truth.

I am very much afraid that you decide whether something 'rings true' by the test that it must fail to disagree with any of your prior views.

That Walid Shoebat is an ex-Muslim terrorist seems very doubtful - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat

Originally Posted By: IneligibleI am very much afraid that you decide whether something 'rings true' by the test that it must fail to disagree with any of your prior views.Do you always have fear of what you are hoping for? I'd see a psychatrist if I were you.  Quote:That Walid Shoebat is an ex-Muslim terrorist seems very doubtful - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat The point you attempt to skirt is HE KNOWS BETTER THAN YOU!

Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: IneligibleI am very much afraid that you decide whether something 'rings true' by the test that it must fail to disagree with any of your prior views.Do you always have fear of what you are hoping for? I'd see a psychatrist if I were you. What possible relevance does that statement have? The point is the question of how you judge the truth of a statement. If you decide a statement is true merely because it agrees with what you already believe, and it is false merely if it disagrees with what you already believe, you are ensuring that no false belief you have can ever be corrected. That is not mentally healthy; nor is it honest. Originally Posted By: thor Quote:That Walid Shoebat is an ex-Muslim terrorist seems very doubtful - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat The point you attempt to skirt is HE KNOWS BETTER THAN YOU! The point you are attempting to skirt is that he appears to have lied about his past, and therefore we can have no confidence that he does know what he is talking about, or that he is not lying about it.It doesn't help your argument to put it in capitals. I an reminded of the old story of the preacher's marginal note: "Argument weak here - speak loudly".

I love these Islam topics. Being a Muslim in the US and marrying a Christian woman, I have experienced all the stereotypes and such all of which is utter bullcrap. All I have to say is in terms of an outside view, one is NOT better than the other and one is NOT worse than the other. Religious debates will continue on and on just like politics and will always have biased people fighting against each other. Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: damienI think I'll grab a Christian buddy, a black man, and a Muslim, and do a 50 churches in 50 days trip through Syria. See what kind of reactions I get. Try it and you may not come back alive. You have got to be fucking kidding me. What kind of damn ignorance are you spewing? My wife and I have traveled to Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon multiple times, and we are clearly still "alive."

Originally Posted By: Kazak

You have got to be fucking kidding me. What kind of damn ignorance are you spewing? My wife and I have traveled to Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon multiple times, and we are clearly still "alive."

Or are you????

Originally Posted By: KazakYou have got to be fucking kidding me. What kind of damn ignorance are you spewing? My wife and I have traveled to Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon multiple times, and we are clearly still "alive." It's called humor, pal. I know Muslims and Christians both have that. So settle down and look at the context of someone's statements before you accuse them of being ignorant. Otherwise, you'll only come across as shallow and knee-jerk.

Originally Posted By: damien Originally Posted By: KazakYou have got to be fucking kidding me. What kind of damn ignorance are you spewing? My wife and I have traveled to Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon multiple times, and we are clearly still "alive." It's called humor, pal. I know Muslims and Christians both have that. So settle down and look at the context of someone's statements before you accuse them of being ignorant. Otherwise, you'll only come across as shallow and knee-jerk. Oh so apparently this whole thread is supposed to be humorous then right?Plus not to mention, why should I particularly care how I come across, especially on a forum.

Well, thor does seem to have the idea that the Middle East is full of evil-looking people brandishing swords. I think he did seriously think that travelling in Syria would be dangerous for Westerners.

Damien, I think Kazak's response was to the highlighted portion of the following exchange between you and thor:

Originally Posted By: thor

Originally Posted By: damien

I think I'll grab a Christian buddy, a black man, and a Muslim, and do a 50 churches in 50 days trip through Syria. See what kind of reactions I get.**
Try it and you may not come back alive.**
Whether he knew it was thor who said it and not you I don't know, then again I may not know shit as seems to be the case lately.

Originally Posted By: OldFolksDamien, I think Kazak's response was to the highlighted portion of the following exchange between you and thor: Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: damienI think I'll grab a Christian buddy, a black man, and a Muslim, and do a 50 churches in 50 days trip through Syria. See what kind of reactions I get.Try it and you may not come back alive. Whether he knew it was thor who said it and not you I don't know, then again I may not know shit as seems to be the case lately. Yes, I was replying to thor's post. I don't see how damien could have been confused, unless he truly thinks thor's post was humorous.

Originally Posted By: KazakYes, I was replying to thor's post. I don't see how damien could have been confused, unless he truly thinks thor's post was humorous. Maybe Damien was confused because you quoted both him and Thor, without clarifying to whom you were responding. And no, Damien rarely thinks Thor's posts are humorous.That being said, thanks for the clarification. I retract my reaction.In the future, I hope you do give attention to how you come across to others. Even on a message board. You'll get a better response from people and probably enjoy the experience more (which I hope you'll stick around and do here.) It's a lesson I had to learn myself.

Originally Posted By: damien Originally Posted By: KazakYes, I was replying to thor's post. I don't see how damien could have been confused, unless he truly thinks thor's post was humorous. Maybe Damien was confused because you quoted both him and Thor, without clarifying to whom you were responding. And no, Damien rarely thinks Thor's posts are humorous.That being said, thanks for the clarification. I retract my reaction.In the future, I hope you do give attention to how you come across to others. Even on a message board. You'll get a better response from people and probably enjoy the experience more (which I hope you'll stick around and do here.) It's a lesson I had to learn myself. How ironic that you're still trying to explain to me some kind of forum etiquette when you were the one that incorrectly reacted to my post in the first place. Obviously the other two posters who responded realized I was responding to thor's post which quoted your post as well, but you couldn't make that connection.Rather than apologizing, you still attempt to criticize me when I was clearly never in the wrong. I'm pretty sure when one is replying to a quote that contains multiple quotes, they are always referring to the more recent reply unless stated otherwise. (humor)Or am I replying to both Kazak or damien at the same time right now...?(/humor)