What the Bible Says/Doesn't Say About Homosexualit
Homosexuality is an abomination. There is no lifting of abominations found anywhere in the Bible. As such, the coming of Christ did not fulfill any law concerning homosexual bahavior. And in case you still don't get it, go back and read in post #2 where the NEW TESTAMENT speaks against homosexuality.
You've got a decision to make, Eddie...and it seems to me you've already made it.
Quote:I have an answer...and if you had asked nicely instead of like some dictatorial tyrant that had powers over the lives of others, I'd have given it to you. No such luck. I'm not sure what you mean by "ask nicely". Do you condemn the views of others, including scholars, theologians and clergy, "nicely"? Quote:Some of what you learn another may have been born knowing, and so forth. When you were born, you knew nothing more than me and every other animal on earth, silly boy.I respect your views on a spiritual journey. It is very different than my journey. I seek the knowledge that you believe to be innate. I'll never have all the answers and will only stop looking when I'm dead. If, by some freak chance, I must meet my maker after death, I will stand proudly on my life and actions, knowing that my chosen morals are equal or superior to anyone's enforced morals.
Quote: There is no lifting of abominations found anywhere in the Bible. Quote:What other abominations does the Bible specify? Of course, adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman and humming "Strangers in the Night" during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5), and that includes Halloween costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford buttondown. And more on buttondowns in a moment.Other abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo, even if it says, "Mom" (Lev 19:26-28). Haughty eyes (Prov 6:17) and telling lies (Prov 6:17, 12:22) are big abominations. Being untruthful also includes false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), or any other dishonesty in business. "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16).What do abominators have for dinner? Rare steaks off the grill (Lev 17:10), Lobster Newburg at the Krebs and crab cakes in Baltimore (Lev 11:10), a rack of ribs at the Dinosaur Bar-B-Que (Lev 11:7).But abominations are not just about bodily functions. Charging or paying interest are abominations. Bankers and anyone with a mortgage, car loan or credit card debt will be unavailable to throw the first stone, regardless of the interest rate (Psalm 15:1-5, Jeremiah 15:10).Graven images of other gods are an abomination (Deut 7:25). Thus the Happy Buddha on my dresser and my postcards of the Great Buddha at Kamakura would excuse me from taking the lead in rock throwing, if I hadn't already fallen by the wayside.My personal favorite abomination is wearing blended fabrics. Deuteronomy 22:11 forbids wearing a material made of wool and linen, but Leviticus 19:19 says it's an abomination to wear any blended material, period. Hence a woman in a man's buttondown can be doubly abominable if it's a no-iron, easy care blend of cotton and polyester. Than there are going to be a lot of people going to hell....
oh now who's being silly?just because some abominations are goofy doesn't mean that the ones I care about are
Hey thor.I've purposely stayed out of this thread, not because I don't have my opinion on the matter but simply because I don't want to get in Eddie's way since he obviously is very passionate about the subject.I simply have one question that I hope you can answer. I'm not going to attack you or call you a homophobe. I will directly address your view, that homosexuality is ok but homosexual sex is not.How is gay sex morally wrong?
Originally Posted By: bobaliciousHey thor.I've purposely stayed out of this thread, not because I don't have my opinion on the matter but simply because I don't want to get in Eddie's way since he obviously is very passionate about the subject.I simply have one question that I hope you can answer. I'm not going to attack you or call you a homophobe. I will directly address your view, that homosexuality is ok but homosexual sex is not.How is gay sex morally wrong? It's an abomination in the eyes of God...says so in the Bible in several places (as if to drive the point home). Whether you want to accept it or not, the vast majority of what we refer to as morals come from a combination of our culture mixed with Biblical precident. Take a look at the Ten Commandments and think about it.
Originally Posted By: NtroducingMyselfThan there are going to be a lot of people going to hell.... I suggest you do some personal research of your own instead of taking something from somebody else at face value.
Originally Posted By: thorIt's an abomination in the eyes of God...says so in the Bible in several places (as if to drive the point home). Whether you want to accept it or not, the vast majority of what we refer to as morals come from a combination of our culture mixed with Biblical precident. Take a look at the Ten Commandments and think about it. Well the first five commandments are pretty much ignored by the majority of people, while the remaining five are usually very strictly followed. Ever wonder why? The last five commandments are useful to society; murder, theft, adultery, lying - these all have victims and nobody likes being a victim. It hurts society to have victims and inequality, which is why society is such a big fan of justice. And these last five commandments were not new ideas, they have been around for a long time. The Bible simply had them written down as the word of God.So the abominations from the Bible that exist today as morals are the ones that actually benefit society. Eating shellfish is not bad for society, so its been ignored by all but the most religious. As has wearing mixed-thread clothing.So unless you can explain why homosexual sex is bad for society, without use of the Bible, then it might as well be added to the list of useless abominations along with the crabs and the polyfibres.
Originally Posted By: bobalicious
Originally Posted By: thor
It's an abomination in the eyes of God...says so in the Bible in several places (as if to drive the point home). Whether you want to accept it or not, the vast majority of what we refer to as morals come from a combination of our culture mixed with Biblical precident. Take a look at the Ten Commandments and think about it.
Well the first five commandments are pretty much ignored by the majority of people, while the remaining five are usually very strictly followed. Ever wonder why?
The last five commandments are useful to society; murder, theft, adultery, lying - these all have victims and nobody likes being a victim. It hurts society to have victims and inequality, which is why society is such a big fan of justice. And these last five commandments were not new ideas, they have been around for a long time. The Bible simply had them written down as the word of God.
So the abominations from the Bible that exist today as morals are the ones that actually benefit society. Eating shellfish is not bad for society, so its been ignored by all but the most religious. As has wearing mixed-thread clothing.
So unless you can explain why homosexual sex is bad for society, without use of the Bible, then it might as well be added to the list of useless abominations along with the crabs and the polyfibres.
It's not up to me to explain anything. Regardless of how/why you think the Bible was written, it's extremely arrogant to think that you, one person, has more/better knowledge about what is/isn't good for society. So placing yourself in the position of judge as to what is and isn't acceptable behavior is laughable, at best. I defer to the Bible. You can play at God all you like...I won't be taking what you say as gospel. :wink:
History is replete with examples of men taking matters into their own hands...convinced that they can do a better job of saying what is/isn't good for society. Instead of a list of useful morals, they end up with a list that's incomplete...some ommitted because they think they should be allowed to do what they want, regardless of potential consequences (that they conveniently turns a blind eye to). Sound familiar? Society then spirals down and falls apart. Every time. Man's desire to follow his carnal side always wins out over all other concerns unless he is guided by an external set of rules...ones he cannot change, and cannot challenge on the basis of them being written by other men that he can assume, at will, are no smarter than he is.
Very well said Bob, and please never stay out of any discussion because of my passion. I am very passionate about this particular debate, but I like hearing what other people have to say, even if its not agreeing with my points. It brings new fresh material to debate
Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: NtroducingMyselfThan there are going to be a lot of people going to hell.... I suggest you do some personal research of your own instead of taking something from somebody else at face value. Though I might have taken a quote out of an article, what I would have said wouldn't have been much different. It was just easier to take their quotes since it had the scriptures already laid out. The point is still there, there are multiple abominations listed in the bible that society has decided to ignore because it had no place in society anymore.According to you there have been no abolished abominations listed in the bible, so we should still be following these listed abominations, which I am sure even you don't follow them all. If you eat sea food, wear mix-thread clothing, ever used a football, than you have committed an abominable act.So if this is true and no abominations have been abolished, why does the church not crack down on the sea food chains? The football making companies? These horrible mixed-thread clothing manufacturers?
Quote:What other abominations does the Bible specify? Of course, adultery (Lev 18:20)Nope...not on the list. Quote:sex with animals (Lev 18:23)Not quite...it is listed as "confusion", which is something else. Quote:remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4)Yep...that one's on the list. Quote:or approaching any woman and humming "Strangers in the Night" during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19)Nope...not on the list. And the banality of the statement shows just how much respect the author has for the Bible (ie, very little). Quote:Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5)Yep...that made the list. Quote:and that includes Halloween costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford buttondown.Sorry, no mention of any of this in the Bible. Seems the target is cross-dressing...pretty simple, actually. Can't forget the "T" in GLBT, can we. Quote:Other abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo, even if it says, "Mom" (Lev 19:26-28)Sorry...none of that on the list. Quote:Haughty eyes (Prov 6:17)Not on the list. Quote:and telling lies (Prov 6:17, 12:22)Yes, but only in 12:22. It's also a part of the Ten Commandments (NOT to do it, for all you simpletons). Quote:Being untruthful also includes false weights and measures (Prov 11:1)Yes...deceit is another form of lying. On the list. Quote:"Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16)Here is Prov 11:16:[16] A gracious woman retaineth honour: and strong men retain riches.Seems along with probably being gay, this author is also a liar. Quote:What do abominators have for dinner? Rare steaks off the grill (Lev 17:10)I'd say that's a stretch of what the Bible says, but it's not on the list, anyway. Quote:Charging or paying interest are abominations. Bankers and anyone with a mortgage, car loan or credit card debt will be unavailable to throw the first stone, regardless of the interest rate (Psalm 15:1-5, Jeremiah 15:10)You go look up those passages and read them for yourself...I'm not going to quote all of it here. Suffice it to say the author stretches what is said beyond the breaking point. And again, nothing there to be found on the list. Quote:Graven images of other gods are an abomination (Deut 7:25). Thus the Happy Buddha on my dresser and my postcards of the Great Buddha at Kamakura would excuse me from taking the lead in rock throwing, if I hadn't already fallen by the wayside.Not quite. The passage speaks of not taking the gold or silver from the graven images (statues) of "other gods" that God has ordered them to destroy, as it (the taking) is abomination. The Ten Commandments DOES speak against the images themselves...though no mention of abomination is mentioned (or needs to be). Quote:My personal favorite abomination is wearing blended fabrics. Deuteronomy 22:11 forbids wearing a material made of wool and linen, but Leviticus 19:19 says it's an abomination to wear any blended material, period. Hence a woman in a man's buttondown can be doubly abominable if it's a no-iron, easy care blend of cotton and polyester.I will admit that this is one area I don't understand. But again, no mention of it being an abomination.In short, the author is mostly full of crap. Most of the things he says are listed as abominations are not...and some of the passages he stretches; with one a flat-out lie. This is why you need to study it for yourself...it's obvious you didn't even bother to look them up before posting them here. I'm getting tired of leading the horse to the water and he refusing to drink. You need to get off your duff and look this stuff up yourself next time.
Quote: Lev 18:23 – Sex with AnimalsThough I will agree the passage does not state anything about abomination, though when I went to google to look up the scripture I did find many Christian resources that points at this exact scripture as an abomination. Quote: Lev 18:19 – Sex with a female when “Unclean” (On her period)Okay so in that exact scripture it does not say abomination, but if you continue reading it does state anything listed above as abominations:18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God. Quote: Deut 22:5 - Cross-dressing "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."I think that speaks for itself. Quote: Lev 19:26-28 - tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo,I can agree I don’t see anywhere where this is an abomination, but it’s very clear that these are pretty big no-no’s to the lord. But I agree I don’t see where this is listed as abomination. Quote: Prov 6:17 – Haughty EyesSorry, but yes this is on the list:[6:16] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: [6:17] Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, [6:18] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, [6:19] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Quote: Lev 17:10 – Raw Foods (Blood)Though in your eyes it might be a stretch, but it does state that this practice is detestable by God. A definition of abomination is something that is detestable. So though perhaos a stretch, its not a huge stretch. Quote: Deut 7:25"The graven images of their gods you are to burn with fire; you shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, or you will be snared by it, for it is an abomination to the LORD your God.Again speaks for itself. Quote: Lev 19:19 - Mixed FabricFor this one you have to look at the beginning of the scriptures. He talks about the offering being eaten on the third day that it would be an abomination and therefore the things he listed there after were also abominations. One of the things he listed was mixing fabrics:"Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee."
This whole idea of thor's that things described as 'abominations' are binding on Christians and the rest of the Mosaic Law is not, has no basis in Scripture. I don't know where it comes from - I haven't seen it anywhere else. Scripture says that Christians are not under the Law, without distinction.Does thor feel he can eat pork (Lev 11:7) but not shrimp or shellfish (Lev 11:10-12)?Any intelligent reading of Leviticus suggests that 'abomination', 'unclean' and similar words are representing the same idea. For example, in the KJV Lev 18:26-30 makes repeated reference to "these abominations", even though the word was used explicitly for only one of the commandments in this section.On top of all that, the word "abomination" is used in the KJV for two different Hebrew words (in various forms), and both of these words are also translated by other words in the KJV. Wikipedia article on Biblical use of the word "abomination".
After having spent more time with it, I'll agree with you on the "Haughty Eyes" and "sex with 'Unclean' woman", but have to disagree with you on "Mixed Fabric". After having read through it several times, it doesn't fit (!). Moses is addressed again prior to its mention...you'll see what I mean if you go back and look at it that way, I think.
Originally Posted By: IneligibleDoes thor feel he can eat pork (Lev 11:7) but not shrimp or shellfish (Lev 11:10-12)?You'll note that all other mentions (so far) have been simply abominations, or abominations in the eyes of God (or words to that effect). Lev. 11:10-12 is specifically to the Israelites. Those are "abominations to you"...it is specific. Perhaps the shellfish in that area were bad for some reason...I do know that pigs had worms at that time in that part of the world; perhaps why pork was not allowed? Anyway, that's my take.An abomination is an abomination. A law is a law. Christ fulfills the law for us...He does not fulfill abominations for us.I suggest you go back and read things a little more intelligently yourself, wiseacre.
Quote:Christ fulfills the law for us...He does not fulfill abominations for us.I can't agree that the power of Christ's grace is so limited. There is no Scriptural warrant for it.
Originally Posted By: NtroducingMyself
Very well said Bob, and please never stay out of any discussion because of my passion. I am very passionate about this particular debate, but I like hearing what other people have to say, even if its not agreeing with my points. It brings new fresh material to debate :smile:
I've developed a way of approaching these debates without any emotional involvement so I guess I'm afraid that my lack of passion would come across as not caring. I didn't like how Roc thought that I was against gay people, a misunderstanding that I still haven't been able to explain to myself, and I don't want to hurt people that I respect by somehow giving that impression again.
Originally Posted By: thorIt's not up to me to explain anything. Regardless of how/why you think the Bible was written, it's extremely arrogant to think that you, one person, has more/better knowledge about what is/isn't good for society. So placing yourself in the position of judge as to what is and isn't acceptable behavior is laughable, at best. Far from me making these decisions myself, these are aspects of society that have formed independently of a holy book. I am not the one making claims about morality and saying that I must be right because a 2000+ year old book agrees with me. A book, might I add, supposedly written by a being that acts quite immorally throughout the text. Not exactly the best role model. Originally Posted By: thorYou can play at God all you like...I won't be taking what you say as gospel. Why can't you take this view on everything in life, including the book? Originally Posted By: thorHistory is replete with examples of men taking matters into their own hands...convinced that they can do a better job of saying what is/isn't good for society. Instead of a list of useful morals, they end up with a list that's incomplete...some ommitted because they think they should be allowed to do what they want, regardless of potential consequences (that they conveniently turns a blind eye to).And I'm not arguing this. You've created the strawman that I think we should make up our own morals. What I'm saying is that morals evolve, they are not always a constant. It is you, with your apparently divine book, that seems to want to enforce rules that have no real world justification. Originally Posted By: thorMan's desire to follow his carnal side always wins out over all other concerns unless he is guided by an external set of rules...ones he cannot change, and cannot challenge on the basis of them being written by other men that he can assume, at will, are no smarter than he is. I never understood this argument. If the Bible was proven to be a complete fabrication and God was somehow 100% dis-proven, would you rape and murder simply because there was no eternal punishment?
