Dammit, if you'd go beyond "my feelings" and post something factual, these discussions might not be so ridiculous.And you're getting all pissy why? I have been very polite up til now, so lets keep it polite huh?>You make it sound like a scientist debating a creationist. Not all opinions are equal. Did I said all opinion are equal? did I ever say all opinions should be equal? no. I simply said you and I both have different opinions and they are very strong. Nothign more nothing less.
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Conspiracy theory... what do you think?
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I'm sure there are a lot of natural remedies that are out there or perhaps have yet to be discovered. I can't list any modern medicines, but I'm sure many are not synthetic man-made stuff, but rather extracted or developed from plants etc..
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I agree with that. Many drugs came from plants, but are now made synthetically. The molecule is the same, and the effect is the same, as the drugs that came from the plants. The active ingredient of aspirin orignally came from the bark of a tree. The source of the key ingredient in Temiflu is the star anise fruit. Unfortunately, there's not nearly enough of it available, and the processing it is complex, so an alternate source (one has allegedly been found) or a synthetic source is needed.One of the saddest things about losing so many plant species (especially in the rain forests) before they can be analyzed is that good treatments for diseases may be lost before they can even be discovered.My issue is not with the idea of herbal remeides, but the way they are marketed. I just hope that people aren't giving up standard medical treatment that's know to be effective for some herbal treatment that sounds cool. If you have cancer, for instance, complementary therapies are fine (as long as your doctor is aware of what you are doing, if it involves ingesting things), but they are not a reasonable substitute for chemotherapy, etc., in the great majority of cases.
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I agree with that. Many drugs came from plants, but are now made synthetically. The molecule is the same, and the effect is the same, as the drugs that came from the plants.In man made synthetic chemicals, there is a left and a right drug. The left drug is the one that is supposed to do the real work like help depression for example. But the "right" part of the drug is the drug that pretty much just floats around your body, which usually causes the side effects like upset stomachs, nose bleeds etc etc. Natural herbs do not have a "right" drug, only a left. This is what happens when mankind tries to duplicate something nature makes.>One of the saddest things about losing so many plant species (especially in the rain forests) before they can be analyzed is that good treatments for diseases may be lost before they can even be discovered.I could not agree more!!!!!>My issue is not with the idea of herbal remedies, but the way they are marketed.I will not dispute the fact that when it comes to herbs they should not be labeled by anyone as a "Cure". I see nothing wrong on the other hand "labeling" it as something that can possibly help.>If you have cancer, for instance, complementary therapies are fine (as long as your doctor is aware of what you are doing, if it involves ingesting things), I agree you certainly need to communicate with your doctor because last thing anyone would want is an unwanted side effect from conflictions.>but they are not a reasonable substitute for chemotherapy, etc., in the great majority of cases. In your opinion, BUT there are cases when chemo was unsuccessful and people were basically left to die. Then they tried something holistic and went into remission.. Yeah yeah I know "Spontaneous remission" right? blah I say!I want to give a brief story; though I know Steve you hate them. When I went and seen the Iridologist there were two younger ladies in his office first. Well as they were leaving he asked them if they would share their story with me. Well a month ago these two ladies lost their sister to a genetic disease that all three sisters inherited. Well before their sister died the oldest of the sisters started taking herbs from this Iridologist. Well the sister that died didn't believe in the herbs and thought they were silly. Their other sister was torn between it all. Well unfortunately their sister died, but the sister that was taking the herbs is now in complete remission of this disease and now the other sister was there that same day getting the herbs. To me that was a very powerful testimony from real life people. Though I am sure you'll tear it apart, it was moving for me.
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> In man made synthetic chemicals, there is a left and a right drug.
What the hell are you talking about? Are you posting Internet spam as if it's scientific? Is there a left and right aspirin, as well as the countless other synthetic drugs that were originally derived from plants? How about penicillin?
> I see nothing wrong on the other hand "labeling" it as something that can possibly help.
The problem is that anyone can label anything as a possible treatment for whatever. Then you get things like ground up sea shell pills that are full of heavy metals. You never really know what you're getting, unless an independent lab assays what you're taking.
> BUT there are cases when chemo was unsuccessful and people were basically left to die.
And the vast majority of them go on to die of their illness. Do you have any numbers for how many of them then went on to be cured by herbal treatment, or is wishful thinking good enough for you?
> Yeah yeah I know "Spontaneous remission" right? blah I say!
I say that an herbal treatment can be effective for a certain malady, but it should be studied. You seem to be saying that spontaneous remission is a bunch of BS. You apparently know more than lots and lots of PhDs. Good for you.
> I want to give a brief story
The problem with your stories is that they may be inspirational, but they are completely worthless from a scientific perspective. If you want to be credulous, that's fine, but people need to know that taking some herbal remedy is not a slam-dunk cure for things like cancer. Thankfully Lance Armstrong realized that. Many, many people go into long-term remission from standard cancer therapies, of which chemotherapy is just one. Childhood leukemia is just one area where great progress has been made.
With your logic, people might as well go to TV preachers for their cures. You get a push on the forehead, you fall down on the ground, and your disease is cured. It's so simple. There are lots of stories.
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One of the saddest things about losing so many plant species (especially in the rain forests) before they can be analyzed is that good treatments for diseases may be lost before they can even be discovered.I read a story about someone who would go out into rainforests etc.. to harvest samples of various plants for medicinal study. Apparently, one species of plant from a certain region had very promising properties. They dispatched the guy to get more samples. When he arrived to the area where he found the plant, it had been clear cut. He found the same/similar plant in other areas, but there was something about the plant in that area that was not found in the other plants. The potential in that plant was lost.
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That's pretty sad. Another problem is that global warming, which is pretty much beyond dispute, will kill off some plant species in some areas. It will also seriously affect the rain forests.Some climatologists think that rain forests are a random artifact of the way the climate happens to be now, and that they're not necessarily a constant feature of the planet...at least, according to a newspaper article I once read.
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In reply to:
In man made synthetic chemicals, there is a left and a right drug. The left drug is the one that is supposed to do the real work like help depression for example. But the "right" part of the drug is the drug that pretty much just floats around your body, which usually causes the side effects like upset stomachs, nose bleeds etc etc. Natural herbs do not have a "right" drug, only a left. This is what happens when mankind tries to duplicate something nature makes.
In reply to:
What the hell are you talking about? Are you posting Internet spam as if it's scientific? Is there a left and right aspirin, as well as the countless other synthetic drugs that were originally derived from plants? How about penicillin?
Most organic molecules are "chiral". This means that they are different from their mirror images. Chiral molecules come in two mirror-image forms, which we can call left and right if we wish. Other molecules (especially small simple ones) are achiral, which means they are the same as their mirror image, and only have one form.
Mirror image molecules have identical properties except when they interact with something else that is chiral. The biochemicals in our body are nearly all chiral, and present in only one of the two forms. Usually only one of the two forms of a chiral drug is active (not necessarily the "left" form), and the other is usually inactive and may be toxic. Chiral molecules from biological sources are usually present in the plant or animal only in one form - penicillin is an example, as are cocaine and morphine and almost every orther alkaloid. (Aspirin is achiral.) Molecules made synthetically, however, if they are made from achiral starting materials, will have both forms. (This was used in Dorothy Sayers' The Documents in the Case to prove a death was murder.)
The two forms can be separated but it adds significantly to the cost, and it used not often to be done by drugs manufacturers. Now, however, separation is much more common. Thalidomide was a notable example why this is a good thing - the birth defects were not caused by the active form of the drug, but by its mirror image.
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Thank you for describing that better than I was able to, very appreciated.
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The problem is that anyone can label anything as a possible treatment for whatever. Then you get things like ground up sea shell pills that are full of heavy metals. You never really know what you're getting, unless an independent lab assays what you're taking.You're talking about one certain herbal med.. There are many herbs that have been used for thousands of years. Problem is the drug companies cannot make money off the herbs so they discard their potential usage. I am not saying on here people should run out and take herbal meds over man-made drugs, simply saying their are other options as well, esp when the man made drugs fail.>And the vast majority of them go on to die of their illness. Do you have any numbers for how many of them then went on to be cured by herbal treatment, or is wishful thinking good enough for you?Oh yeah it's all wishful thinking Steve. Get a flipping grip LoL. Ask your questions without the underlining insults. I doubt there is a recorded study out there that will list how many people were cured of natural remedies. Though I'll see if I can find that for you Steve. Though regardless it'll mean nothing to you, because you'll find some way to disregard it.> say that an herbal treatment can be effective for a certain malady, but it should be studied. You seem to be saying that spontaneous remission is a bunch of BS. You apparently know more than lots and lots of PhDs. Good for you.I never once said herbal remedies shouldn't be studied.. Actually I have been saying the total opposite that they SHOULD be studied. And I am not saying spontaneous remission isn't possible because our bodies are wonder machines.. BUT classifying everything as spontaneous remission when someone is taking herbal remedies that could have cured the disease is what I am calling ridiculous. Oh and yes I know WAY more the any Phd, so glad you finally realized rolls eyes note the sarcasm please.>The problem with your stories is that they may be inspirational, but they are completely worthless from a scientific perspective.No Steve lets be honest.. it's point TO YOU because there is no scientific data to prove it was the herbs. How many doctors do you think are going to say it was the herbs that cured a person even if it’s true... not many.>If you want to be credulous, that's fine, but people need to know that taking some herbal remedy is not a slam-dunk cure for things like cancerPlease Steve quote me to where I EVER said this?? First off I NEVER would say that. I'm not about trying to play with someone else’s lives. All I am trying to say is that is Chemo fails there are options of a natural source that MIGHT help. That's all I have been saying and you keep trying to make it sound like I am saying the opposite when I am not.>Many, many people go into long-term remission from standard cancer therapies, of which chemotherapy is just one. Childhood leukemia is just one area where great progress has been made.Would never and have never denied that. Would be foolish of me to say otherwise. My Aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer and modern medicine worked great for her.>With your logic, people might as well go to TV preachers for their cures.Steve I am cool with you not accepting the natural approach, but your underlining insults are truly childish. Again you make it out like I am saying all natural cures are the miracle "drugs" when I am not saying that. Again I am saying is they are an option and an option I think needs to be further studied as well.
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>> The problem is that anyone can label anything as a possible treatment for whatever. Then you get things like ground up sea shell pills that are full of heavy metals. You never really know what you're getting, unless an independent lab assays what you're taking.
> You're talking about one certain herbal med..
No, that type of problem (contamination, and not knowing how much active ingredient you're getting, regardless of what the label claims) is a problem for most herbal "dietary supplements". That's true for things in bottles (that have been processed) and for things in thier original state (e.g., a type of flower). It's very easy to get too large a dose of something, which can lead to problems.
Consumer Reports got pretty mixed results when they assayed Omega-3 fish oil capsules, which is regulated as a dietary supplement, like herbal things. A lot of them were contaminated, and didn't contain the amount of active ingredient claimed on the label (although, at the time, Costco's store brand tested well). The same sort of thing has been found when herbal medicines have been tested. You just don't know what you're getting. And there doesn't seem to be much of a correlation between price and quaility.
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>> The problem with your stories is that they may be inspirational, but they are completely worthless from a scientific perspective.
> it's point TO YOU because there is no scientific data to prove it was the herbs.
So you're absolutely, 100% certain? No doubt at all? That is an unscientific opinion, and your story adds nothing to the body of science on the subject. People fool themselves very easily, and tend to see what they expect. Your story is no different than the story of people who are "cured" by television faith healers, from a scientific perspective. The personal stories add very little to the body of useful knowledge.
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OKay this is turning into nothing more than a nit-pic debate and those are just annoying. Either read eveything I said as a whole and not just tid bits here and there or please don't read it at all because personally this is very old.Sorry Steve but you and I just will not see eye to eye because you want to make assumptions to my opinion because you only see certian things instead of taking my whole opinion as a whole.
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OKay this is turning into nothing more than a nit-pic debate and those are just annoying. Either read eveything I said as a whole and not just tid bits here and there or please don't read it at all because personally this is very old.The stuff in between stood separetely. It's not like you were constructing a several-paragraph-long argument that hung together and culminated in some great point. Sheesh.> Sorry Steve but you and I just will not see eye to eye because you want to make assumptions to my opinion because you only see certian things instead of taking my whole opinion as a whole.My opinion is that you're not arguing science, and therefore you are arguing philosophy and religion. The problem with that is that the discussion is about people's health. There actually is a lot of data available on research into various herbal remedies. If only you were motiviated to find it, there might actually be something here worth discussing. It seems that your observations on your personal experiences, which affirm what you already believe, are good enough for you.
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Steve... DROP IT! LOL I am seriously, try and do the mature thing and let it go huh?? Nothign everything needs to be debated to death. We both said whate we had to say now let it go. Nothing more can be said.
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[Rolling eyes at the hyocrisy...] Why did you feel the need to post again? Are you upset that you didn't have the last word? Are you making sure that we understand that you are upset? I don't get it.
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I'm not upset I just want you to let it go. All I am saying is that we both made our points, the readers get the idea.. now let it move on. Once everything has been said and all points are given, what more can you debate?That's my point. And as for the "[Rolling eyes at the hyocrisy...] " ..way to be mature.....