Fetal stem cell reasearch veto

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> When you make it OK to rob a clone for parts, you have devaluated the clone to less than the status of human being.

Who is advocating that? Not I. Are we talking about embryonic stem cell research, or are we talking about adult clones?

But if we must go down that rat hole, clones are not a race any more that a twin sibling is a member of some race. A clone is simply a zygote, embryo, baby, child, or adult who shares DNA with another person, exactly like a twin.

The problem the churches have is that their reasoning for santifying zygotes is that they are potential human life (although so is a sperm and an egg). But now that so many cells could be used to make a human clone, shouldn't those cells be afforded the same protection? Shouldn't we stop brushing our teeth in order to stop killing the thousands of cells that could be babies?

You do know what a straw man is, don't you? Rather than constructing another one, would you care to address the points that I actually did raise?

What about organ doners? They make the choice to give up parts of their body to help others live, and people give up their entire body for the advancement of science to help people of the future.A fetus is still a part of the woman, she should have the choice of what is done with it. If she chooses to abort the pregnancy then she should have the right to give this part of herself to science, just as anyone has the choice to give their kidneys or heart.

A fetus is still a part of the woman, she should have the choice of what is done with it. If she chooses to abort the pregnancy...Up to what point in the pregnancy does that apply?

actually, the major question as it pertains to a religious debate is "when is a soul asigned". That's why no one can win an argument of science vs faith.If someone beleives that an embrio already has a souls, you'll never convince him that the embrio is anything other than a person.Now, I'm not famillar with the bible's take on this but I'm pretty sure that there was no awareness of embrios back when it was written. Does that mean that science has extended religion?

The bible appears to be silent on the matter as far as I know; there doesn't appear to be any issue with terminating a pregnancy before fetal viability. Too bad God didn't write the bible in clear, unambiguos modern English.ReligiousTolerance.org: What the Bible says about Abortion.

well, maybe he didn't really expect it to catch on

Actually, I'm sure God knew what would happen as a result of not addressing the issue. That's exactly why he didn't address it. It's a test of character.

BTW, if you treat clones any differently than non-clones, you have created a race other than what people will consider human...and if you treat it any differently (fetus or not) by doing things to it that would be against the law to do to a human, it is a slave race. Fast forward to the future where they grow clones for spare body parts for the rich and famous. If you don't think it can happen, think again. How would you like to wake up as a clone?

Bottom line: In no way is our society ready for this.

do clones get souls?

Are you making believe you don't see my posts, or are you just unable to address the points that are raised. You keep constructing a clone strawman, and then shred it. What is the point? What on earth does "human clone" have to do with "embroyonic stem_cell"?

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How would you like to wake up as a clone?

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WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? If you have an identical twin sibling, you wake up as a clone every day. If you had a kidney_transplant, you wake up with someone else's kidney. But what does any of this have to do with embryonic stem_cell research?

If this is supposed to be some kind of slippery slope, you've slipped right off the deep end. None of it makes any sense.

Maybe we should ban democracy, becuase with its existence, embryonic stem_cell research is legal in this country and others, even if the U.S. federal government won't be handing out research grants for it. Maybe we should just let the Pope decide for us.

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I'm sure God knew what would happen as a result of not addressing the issue. That's exactly why he didn't address it. It's a test of character.

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I'm so happy you know the mind of God. I'm glad someone does. He seems to be testing our character all over the place. I suppose "good character" is when we agree with you, and "bad character" is when we don't.

What is with your fascination with movie plot lines? You seem to be easily convinced by works of fiction.

Where did the "race of clones" idea come from? A Star Trek: TNG second season episode?

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Pulaski (with Riker and Worf) quickly finds that the entire colony consists of clones

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Battlestar Galactica?

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society made up of clones

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No, it must have been Star Wars II --- Attack of the Clones

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...Lucas took me on Obi-Wan's journey to a distant water planet where a race of clones have been secretly developed for the Republic...

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I'm not aware of a movie or TV program about embroyonic stem_cell research. Maybe that's why so little is being said about it.

Well I think Lucas had the right idea, we should be getting these fetus clones fighting our wars for us!

Does thor think this discussion has something to do with the idea of cloning people so we can harvest their organs? If so, he's in the wrong thread.

I think that he believes that if we allow scientists to clone zygotes, then that would just open the door to the development and legalisation of full human cloning.

The flaw in the slippery slope argument (an informal logical fallacy) is that you can set the threshold of "badness" wherever it is convenient for your argument. Maybe we should ban all genetic research to be safe. Or all biomedical research. Or all scientific research. Or all free inquiry.If we did no scientific research, then we would never have to worry about such problems.Now back to the real world....

Personally I don't care about cloning, I want robots! What ever happened to the Sony QRIO?

I read of a doctor that successfully cloned himself. The problem being that the clone was near perfect yet still imperfect. One of the major problems was that the clone was incable of normal speach without the constant use of foul language.The doctor, realising that this foul mouthed replica was destroying his reputaion, shoved the clone of the balcony of his penthouse.The doctor was arrested for murder but argued that the clone only exsisted because he created him, therefore he could not be punished for taking that life back.Upon deliberation, the judge realised that the doctor had a very good point, however, he simply could not totally aquit the doc.After careful though, the judge decided to charge the doctor with making an obscene clone fall.

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If the embryos will be thrown out anyway I don't see what's wrong with using them to save lives. I would think personally that God would rather see that they be used for that, then not for anything at all.

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Fundamentalist in this state sought a different remedy to that situation. A few years back they purposed legislation to ban in vitro fertilization (IVF). It didn't pass fortunately for couples with fertility problems. Then a couple years ago (I think it was) they tried to ban egg donation. I don't think that ever even made it to the floor for a vote, then again maybe it did I really can't remember. They promised more legislation to be sent up this year. There has been plenty of grocery store line chit-chat from the "Christan is a Verb" folks but I've heard of nothing so far.

They're reasoning is that if there was no IVF then there would be no embryos left that would have to be either "murdered" or "adopted". The more adherent fundamentalist claimed, man should have no right playing God anyway, because, if God wanted you to have kids he would give them to you. After all, a couples reproductive health is Gods concern not that of the couple and your "God given" intellect is only there to test your character, certainly not to better your situation.

There, the fundamentalist Right already has the problem solved.

You should see what your Oklahoma senators have been saying. They are quite over the top. And one of them is a physician.

Yes I know. As much as it deeply pains me to admit it they are a pretty accurate reflection of the majority or people in this state. Keep in mind, this is the state that recently passed a bill creating a commission that decides what books a library can and can't offer to it's patrons.