This is beyond ridiculous..

---

Okay, I went back and reread your post.>>>"The usual approximation is that about 1/3 women will be seriously sexually assaulted."My question is the same even though it's not the 55%. What is meant by "seriously?" Isn't it still an either you are or your not. I'm just wondering what rises to the level of seriousness. Is an unwanted grope at a party resulting in stout slap across a guys face serious? Or, is it only serious when she can no longer defend herself? I'm not trying to be trite, I'm just trying to figure out the parameters.

To restate an issue Pete brought up where do you, any of you, think the line should be drawn in calling a sexual assault serious? Should there be a line?I would imagine that most who've been seriously sexual assaulted or raped would resent some one who got an unwelcome kiss or had to deal with roaming hands while dancing calling it a sexual assault. As Pete pointed out should researchers be including lesser things in the stats? It's a debatable question. And if they do include these things under the rape umbrella do you think it will help or cause people to become dismissive when someone claims sexual assault?

Well, first, I finally got through reading all the new responses since, a couple days ago, dang was it a lot. I'm only going to post to Scotty's last, because I haven't the time to comment on them all now, but will be forthcoming.I think that sexual assault and rape are two completely different things. While rape falls under the category of sexual assault, it is much much more serious than wandering hands, or doing one thing that results in a slap, etc. then that's it. I would call that, unwanted attention, etc., but not sexual assault. I would define sexual assault as a repeated, offense, or action, to put it better, that didn't stop after a certain point, not to say that it needs/doesn't need to involve law enforcement, but it's ongoing, for a period of time.Rape, on the other hand, I would classify as a man or woman, having sex (including all variables) with another man or woman, against their will, and forcefully. Whether it be holding them, tying them, whatever, even if both parties are intoxicated, etc. and still said no, I think that would still fall under rape. Against better judgment, I wouldn't classify as rape, because you willingly went into it, and no one forced you. Look at it this way, the police treat rape as forced sexual relations. If you went to the police and filed a rape report for being groped, etc. then you'd likely, not always, because I'm not a law enforcement buff, and I'm not TOO sure, but likely be charged with wasting of police resources, etc.That's my point of view on the matter.

Originally Posted By: albeitmyself<<Is there any other way to have a discussion about the issue, personal horrors aside, without it coming off as cold. Does being consolatory do anything to advance understanding. >>Yes, well, Ineligible actually addressing my points from my response to him would be a damn good start. And I know he's been on A2A a lot since I wrote that.It's hurtful to first ignore me and then make statements that imply an ignorance I do not possess and then ignore my response! As I showed in my attempt at a contribution on the subject, a well thought out and careful response is needed in this discussion. Responding rashly leads to misunderstandings and hurt feelings. I'd think that a delayed, thoughtful response would be better than taking a quick stab at it, the former being what I'd imagine that Ineligible is doing.

I'm sorry, Natasha, for upsetting you with that post, which was pretty much a jumble of thoughts without a conclusion, and only put as a reply to you because something you said set my thoughts going.I used your A2A name because I usually do. It's true that I am generally bad with names, but it's more because some people want their real names kept private, and I can't always remember if I know someone's real name because they use it themselves on the board, or because I know it privately.I don't apologise for discussing the issue dispassionately. Feelings are important, but the heat of emotion often leads to bad actions and bad policy. I never intended to belittle your terrible experience, and nor have I sought to excuse any rapist. To have a better understanding is not to deny blame. I do think the often-repeated mantra that rape is only about power is incorrect. Rape mixes power and sexual drive and could not occur without both; I think sometimes one is dominant, sometimes the other.If I were to talk in terms of feelings, I would be basing my opinion on my personal deep distaste and disgust for the game that started this thread. But if that were a valid argument for banning the game, then horror films would have to be banned as well, because I dislike them intensely. But my emotional reaction is only subjective - it is something that happens to me - and that is no reason for placing sanctions on other people. So I try to keep personal feelings out of it.Although there is lots of consensual pre-marital sex, my point is that society has not yet given it full acceptance, and there is no general agreement about what is acceptable and what isn't, or even about what constitutes consent. Many teens and young adults are in a position where they are forbidden any outlet. I have a high opinion of self-sacrifice and self-restraint, myself; but it has to be voluntary to count.I apologise for not replying sooner, Natasha, but thinking takes me a long time, and I just didn't have enough time to reply last night.

Many people don't usually say anything. 8 months later and you guys are the only ones that know. I'd expect "statistics" to be off.I regret bringing this up. Ever since my friend told me about I've been having constant flashbacks since Friday. It's sickening. Lord of the Rings isn't working this time.

Well I think that it's a very valid topic, that needs to be discussed, because it isn't often enough, and is often taken too lightly. In my school, if someone is just playing around, you know, mock fighting, etc. it doesn't matter if it's a boy or girl, one of the first things you hear is "Rape! Rape!", albeit said in a playful manner, I despise the kids that do that, because rape is a serious issue, and it seems that it's often taken for granted that it won't happen to them, then when they do yell that, no one will come to help.Even in health class, where you'd expect it to be talked about, like how to guard yourself from it, it's not talked about, ever, and if someone brings it up, discussion is usually at a minimum. I don't regret you bringing it up. I think it needs to be talked about more, educationally. More people need to see this, in my opinion.

Originally Posted By: FBI

* Nationwide, an estimated 1,408,337 violent crimes occurred in 2007.
* There were an estimated 466.9 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants.
* When data for 2007 were compared with 2006 data, the estimated volume of violent crime declined 0.7 percent.
* Aggravated assault accounted for 60.8 percent of violent crimes, the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement. Robbery comprised 31.6 percent and forcible rape accounted for 6.4 percent. Murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2007.
* In 2007, offenders used firearms in 68.0 percent of the Nation's murders, 42.8 percent of robberies, and 21.4 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapon data are not collected for forcible rape offenses.) (Based on Robbery Table 3, Aggravated Assault Table, and Expanded Homicide Data Table 6.)

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/violent_crime/index.html

I couldn't find accurate enough data for 2008.
albiet: Sorry, I'm not sure about Canada

Well, I do watch Law & Order, SVU, lol...but of course I know that there are many more rapes that always go unreported. Now, not to argue so much, but again, comparing to SVU, there aren't a lot of GOOD reasons, but reasons nonetheless. And I'm not ignoring that fact, I know that is.And I do know, that however real it may seem, TV is just TV.

Originally Posted By: IneligibleIf I were to talk in terms of feelings, I would be basing my opinion on my personal deep distaste and disgust for the game that started this thread. But if that were a valid argument for banning the game, then horror films would have to be banned as well, because I dislike them intensely. But my emotional reaction is only subjective - it is something that happens to me - and that is no reason for placing sanctions on other people. So I try to keep personal feelings out of it.I wish it were only feelings involved...but there are a great many logical reasons (valid arguments) for banning such things that have nothing to do with what happens in horror films. So don't step all over yourself trying to keep from placing limits on what we, as a society, should do. Logic, not emotions, dictate otherwise. In fact, it's emotions and not logic that prevents many from placing logical limits on their own bahavior in the first place! What happens in horror films is horrible...this game tries to turn it into a sport, or something desireable. Do you really fail understand the difference?

Originally Posted By: IneligibleI do think the often-repeated mantra that rape is only about power is incorrect. Rape mixes power and sexual drive and could not occur without both; I think sometimes one is dominant, sometimes the other.I agree with what was stated here and I think it's a serious issue that needs to be addressed with young men everywhere. To my way of thinking most rapes are probably not about power they are indeed about sex. Serial rapist, people who get off on force or control yeah that's about power but I think the majority of adolescent, young adult, rapes are hormone driven. That doesn't make it in an any way more excusable, or less horrific, it means that it needs to be addressed in a different way to the young men of society.Boys are barely out of the kick sand on or hitting the person they're attracted to stage. Add to that the hormone driven angst and one track mind and it's a situation waiting for bad things to easily happen. I would imagine it probable that with the focus on rape as an expression of power that many young men justify their actions because they're "just after the pussy" they had little or no interest in overpowering anyone. So in the minds of these young boys they didn't really do anything wrong. "What I did wasn't rape because I was after sex not empowerment, therefore I'm still a good person."Boys need to be taught that it's not just about power. If they're just looking to get they're rocks off it's still rape. I don't think that message is getting through. Nobody wants to be a rapist but if they're just acting on instinct they feel what they're doing isn't really that wrong. That mindset needs to change and education that is more frank and direct is the only way I can think of to do it. All this is not to say that on some level they don't know what they're doing, but by ignoring the fact that rape is often about sex and not power it allows some to justify or explain away the force they used to get what they want, thereby expunging their conscience of any or most guilt.Beyond the problems I've described above I think there is the cultural aspect of sex that adds to the problem. Society tells young men that women want to be taken. It tells them they are supposed to be strong and women want them to overpower them and be "the man." The there are young girls who get that same message and take their approach to sexual relations from that. So, what you have are immature boys and young men who are just learning how to express their feelings in was other than kick sand at her being told to be powerful and strong and girls and young ladies playing into the part society has set for them and guys who don't think force equals rape and so bad shit flies everywhere.Here's something else to ponder on. In many old cultures, long since dead (mine in particular), boys played at sex with each other. There was no taboo about it. It had nothing to do with sexuality and was nothing more than a phase boys passed through before they took a partner. Boys and young men had sexual release by means of sexual play with each other. While I don't know that would curtail or lessen the rate of rape I think it's absence would only add to the sexual frustration of young men and thus make rape more likely. I have no idea, I'm just thinking and wondering aloud. Do you think the taboo and fear of homosexual play among adolescent boys adds to the problem of rape that our young women face? I mean in an overall since. There are always going to be bad people, I'm just speaking in general.I think that somewhat speaks to Pete's comment about per-marital sex, where he said, my point is that society has not yet given it full acceptance, and there is no general agreement about what is acceptable and what isn't, or even about what constitutes consent. Many teens and young adults are in a position where they are forbidden any outlet. I'm not saying what I described about my long dead culture is in anyway the solution, I'm just saying given the rape of our daughters and earlier age of the onset of puberty we as a society must address this. Our daughters depend on us to address it.

Well, first, since it was last in your post, it's not just your daughters or my sisters, its your sons and my brothers, too. I only have one brother, but I think you see the point.

And that's what I'm saying, I totally agree with you. Rape needs to be taught in school, like how to prevent it, look for signs of a rapist following you, and to recognize it when it is. It needs to be taught, and not only by parents, and no disrespect, epically to all of you who are, because you don't seem like it, but quite a few parents probably couldn't care less, or think that they're grown up enough, they know what's right and what's wrong.

Where I start to disagree with you Scotty, is that we're/they're just after the sex. If that's the case, that's what jacking off was made for! :grin: When it's so bad that you're driven to raping a girl, ruining a life forever, you need help, whether it be from you parents, trusted friends, or counselors. Instinct doesn't have much to do with it, they're making the choice to do that, something that might only last 5 minutes, but impacts a life forever. And sometimes, jail/ criminal punishment isn't enough, because the high that they got off of the power, that they didn't know was necessarily involved, they liked, and they'll do it more, and more.

Back on the agreeable track, hell yes about society. But, no at the same time. You can be 'the man' without being an ass, or potentially a rapist.
But music, TV, and such don't show the results of your actions if you choose to do any of these things. Hit, rape, abuse whatever. There was just a topic on a talk show that plays on my bus in the morning, and it was about the outrage of a man hitting a woman, albeit in "self-defense", which wasn't so bad for shock jocks, etc. But a week later, they had men call in to say why and HOW they abuse their partners. I was appalled that that was on the radio, on a morning show that a lot of the students probably listen to. (Now see, I'm 16. How hard is it to know what's right or not? :grin:)

Abstinence, now there's a crock. I know I'm probably going to get yelled at for this, by whoever, but what should be taught in ALL schools, is safe sex. That should of been one of the first things to go in the new administration (the whole Fed. grant for teaching abstinence). Yes, okay, safe sex doesn't protect COMPLETELY from STI's and such, but this way, the kids that might not know a whole lot about sex, and going back to the media, and internet, what kid doesn't, but those who don't can learn that it's okay to have sex, as long as you're safe, and both partners consent to it.
I'm not entirely sure that exploring homosexuality would curtail anything, but it would defiantly lessen the amount of cruelty in public, and the like, if you knew that a fair majority of boys/girls experimented at one time while they we're growing up. I'm not sure it adds to the rape stats, but I think it'd be better if most people were more open to "gay play". :grin: Yay, I can rhyme!

And I agree with you, and Pete, that pre-marital sex shouldn't be frowned upon. What does it really matter? It's not impacting you (in general), and they believe what they choose to believe, whether they're going to get damned, or whatever.

And another thinker, off of a thinker. :grin:
What do you think consent should imply? I mean, obviously >12 etc. shouldn't really be breeding like rabbits, but when should it be okay for people underage to have sex? Should there be an age? (but again, going back to 'too young is too young')

And out of curiosity, why is the age that puberty starts at getting younger/lower?
(man...i think that a lot more people need to see this whole discussion...)

Originally Posted By: LuvMyCats

Abstinence, now there's a crock. I know I'm probably going to get yelled at for this, by whoever, but what should be taught in ALL schools, is safe sex.

And what would give you the right to tell me or anybody else how and what to teach their children? When something is taught in school, it is made out by the students to be something that is condoned by society. I do not impose my social rules on other folks kids...why should they be allowed to impose their rules/ideas on mine?

You call abstinance a crock, but stats show that unwanted teen pregnancies skyrocketed once "safe sex" (now there IS a crock) began to be taught in school. In fact, I posted a link to those stats somewhere on this board...search for it if you like. "Safe sex" didn't make sex any safer...just raised kids curiousity and showed them how and what to do, long before they had any business getting into it (can you say "pre-teen"?). I will teach my child abstinance, when I choose to, and deal with whatever comes down the pike as a result (and yes, she is a girl). You're free to do as you wish with your kids, when you have them. Maybe at that point you'll understand better where I and others like me are coming from, and realize that you're taking away folks freedom to raise their kids how they see fit. How I raise my kids is none of your business and certainly none of the governments.

Originally Posted By: LuvMyCatssomething that might only last 5 minutes, but impacts a life forever. Quite true my friend. Originally Posted By: LuvMyCats And sometimes, jail/ criminal punishment isn't enough, because the high that they got off of the power, that they didn't know was necessarily involved, they liked, and they'll do it more, and more.In my country a new law was annouced for rapists found guilty.......death sentence--'to be hanged till death'......but there hasnt been much of a difference..........a 5yr old girl was found raped and murdered few months after the law was made I had once read an ebook called "Rape" (cos it was on discount and I had nothing better to do ) it tells the story of a rapist and what he likes and why he does what he does. Its all about power combined with sex drive.  Originally Posted By: LuvMyCats And I agree with you, and Pete, that pre-marital sex shouldn't be frowned upon. What does it really matter? It's not impacting you (in general), and they believe what they choose to believe, whether they're going to get damned, or whatever.I agree with all of you on this.......believe me I am 26 I havent had any decent sexual activity in my life that would be a bit pleasing I am getting tired of masturbating it gives me the orgasms but there is an empty feeling......been doing that since I was 17 to keep myself under control and not cross the line.......all this just to be a good girl for my parents and my bf and what do I get for it........"wait till 2010-2012 to get married and have sex"--my bf's words. Originally Posted By: LuvMyCatsAnd out of curiosity, why is the age that puberty starts at getting younger/lower?I read on the net few days ago that food stuff/water contains a lot of feminizing hormones and other hormones.........these may be causing a few hormonal changes in people/animals/fish......this has yet to be proven........its just something I came across while searching for a recipe with soy products, I didnt find the recipe cos I ended up reading articles on hormones and steroids present in plants.Maybe these hormones are the reason for early onset of puberty or maybe they are not.......wish someone would do some research into this........I dont know if its possible that plant hormones similar to ours can cause a change in people but I do know that plants do contain hormones that can mimic or act like our hormones like phytoestrogen phytoprogesterone which are similar to estrogen and progesterone found in women........and these plant hormones are also used to make birth control/HRT pills.

I really had no intention of contributing to this thread, but seriously, come on now! ''Obviously greater than 12''???

Originally Posted By: LuvMyCats

Rape needs to be taught in school, like how to prevent it

I'm sorry, but what exactly do you mean by this? You think a teacher can come into a class and teach how to prevent rape? If we knew how to prevent it, it would hardly be happening with such a regular occurance, now would it?

Originally Posted By: LuvMyCats

How hard is it to know what's right or not?

Common sense? Moral compass? How would I feel if this was being done to me? Is this legal?

Originally Posted By: LuvMyCats

Yes, okay, safe sex doesn't protect COMPLETELY from STI's

Or from unwanted teenage (or otherwise) pregnancies.

Originally Posted By: LuvMyCats

What do you think consent should imply? I mean, obviously >12 etc. shouldn't really be breeding like rabbits, but when should it be okay for people underage to have sex? Should there be an age? (but again, going back to 'too young is too young')

Laws that govern ages for sexual consent were set up for our own good! I don't mean to sound preachy but they are here to literally protect us! They may not always succeed but that is their intention.
When you're twelve you may hold hands or get a kiss on the cheek (or not even that) but sex? At that age, you are not mature enough to know the consequences of your actions. You're only really beginning to develop emotionally and physically for God's sake!

Originally Posted By: thor"Safe sex" didn't make sex any safer...just raised kids curiousity and showed them how and what to do, long before they had any business getting into it (can you say "pre-teen"?).Children shouldnt be exposed to sexual stuff at very young ages.......I read once read a story of 9yr old kid being sexually active. If children are exposed at such an young age there will never be an innocent childhood for them. I was accidentally exposed to porn at the age of 4 yrs and I didnt know why the woman who looked like a teacher was lying naked before her student in the video and curiously I asked someone what was going on in the video (it was one of my dad's colleagues--a doctor) he answered...."teacher was feeling very hot, so the student undressed her and is giving an injection to her ass" I said I didnt see any syringe in his hand, he replied "oh, he has got one alright....right there between his legs and its a big one isnt it?" but all I saw was the guys dick entering the woman...... ok he may have thought I would forget that when I grew up........guess I didnt forget it cos I knew the human body very well and knew the difference b/w syringe and penis. His twin sons were 3yrs younger than me......being a parent himself how could he let a 4yr old watch porn? Some grownups.....Ugh!!!They think they can fool kids. Originally Posted By: thor I will teach my child abstinence, when I choose to, and deal with whatever comes down the pike as a result. You're free to do as you wish with your kids, when you have them. I would do the same for my kids.......If I ever have any

>>>"Where I start to disagree with you Scotty, is that we're/they're just after the sex. If that's the case, that's what jacking off was made for!"

What I'm speaking of when I stated this is the typical adolescent male, not the person out to dominate and get off on a power trip. While that can be the adolescent male in most cases of adolescent rape I don't think it is. As the age of the rapist grows I think the trend would be more toward the classic idea of what motivates a rapist.

As far as masturbation alleviating sexual angst, speaking for myself it did nothing to alleviate the desire for the real thing. And, beyond that when a guy is horny and making out with his partner he isn't going to whip it out right then and there to get passed the feeling "I gotta get me some." I just think if masturbation where an adequate alternative boys would never leave the house... so to speak.

What would probably have the most success if dealt with honestly is rape by a boyfriend or rape that is "just taking advantage." I don't know that in most of these cases the guys would consider themselves predators or bad or evil and that needs to be changed. The end result is no different than a stranger breaking in a house and forcing someone into sexual actions. In some ways it might be worse because this heinous betrayal is perpetuated by someone trusted and cared for.

What these young men need to be made to understand is that stop means stop and just because you don't think yourself a bad guy and because your close to your partner doesn't give you the right to pressure them into anything. I think there is to much acceptance, among guys, of guys who pressure the situation. It kinda like no one sees him as a rapist because they were going out or because they were in the throws of amorous engagement. I think the tendency is, among men and boys, to believe that as long as they know there partner and as long as there's no kicking and screaming what they do is okay. I think there is to much of an equation among the male gender that rape is holding a knife and there's kicking and screaming and crying. They tend to think if those things aren't present than they're not a rapist and that is what needs to be addressed and changed. I think that would go a ways toward stopping many rapes.

Someone said how do you educate about this, well boys need to taught by society and parents that stop means just that and saying, "it'll be okay." doesn't make any difference. Just because they're your partner and you don't really mean to hurt them doesn't excuse the act or make it anything less than rape.

I believe that's part of the problem I don't think many of these people consider what they're doing to be rape. With all the focus on rape as power they don't get that just cause they were only after sex it still rape. It may be just me. I don't want to believe, and even refuse to believe, that one third of the male population of the world are that evil. I think the problem is that many of them are given a pass and society doesn't condemn with enough boisterousness that force for sex is just as wrong as force for power and is just as much rape as the latter.

Originally Posted By: SayaI was accidentally exposed to porn at the age of 4 yrs...Sorry to hear that. Innocense is like virginity...once it's gone, it's gone. But that doesn't make you any less a person for it.I have a cousin who's a lot younger than me. Not long ago, when she was about 9, she asked me what the word "sexy" meant (after having it pounded into her by the TV). After about a 2 second "dear in the headlights" response, I told her it's what girls like about guys, but other guys don't care about...and what guys like about girls, and other girls don't care about. You can't lie to kids...but niether do you have to rub their noses in it in order to give them a meaningful answer.

Originally Posted By: thorYou can't lie to kids...but niether do you have to rub their noses in it in order to give them a meaningful answer. Yep quite true.The influence of TV---a 3-4yr old kid once came up to me and said "hey Sexy" when I was shopping........My response was similar to yours "deer in the headlights"

Please bear with me, I'm on my laptop, and the 'L' and 'G' keys don't work very well.thor: Well, since it is taught, and the government teaches it, I think that I should have a say in what's taught, whether it's America, or Soviet Russia. Second, I wasn't calling what you believe a crock, or you, for that matter, and I respect your opinion, so please do respect mine. I'm not mad, just saying...Okay, everyone, PLEASE don't brand me a flip-flopper, or anything, but today, in health, we had a speaker come, and yes, I've somewhat changed my mind, abstinence isn't that bad, but I still think that abstinence and safe[r] sex should be taught together, because in my opinion, abstinence makes it seem like you have no choice, no sexual outlet, and if you do do anything, it makes you a bad person, because you didn't wait. With safe[r] sex, then it doesn't make it seem that way. I know the stats, and how much better it actually is than safe[r] sex. Again, I'm sorry if I struck a chord, but please don't disrespect my opinion (saying that "I'll understand when I have kids"), I plan on teaching my kids safe[r] sex skills, and abstinence skills together. That's what I believe, and would like them too, as well.I think that the government SHOULD have a say in what's taught, since they're in the business of protecting the health of their citizens, I think that it's good that there's much more taught in the way of STI/D's now.I know it's been said, but it'd HARDLY be pre-teen. Major sex ed. isn't taught until high school. Before that, in my district's case, it's just the whole 'your body and you' thing in jr. high, and that masturbating is normal, etc.Sunshine: I just stated that,(obviously When I say prevent rape, that was a bad choice of words on my part, sorry. What I mean by it, is to teach cautionary skills, like knowing what to look for, teach some mandatory self defense, and how to protect yourself if you happen to have your arms held.In terms of the whole Good Person point, you still have a choice to be a good person or not, regardless of your upbringing or wealth status. I don't think that those are reasons/excuses at all for being a murderer/rapist/etc.. If you have a mental issue, that's one thing, but...And with the question at the end, I wasn't asking why they were there, just if anyone had a specific opinion on the matter. And I wasn't implying that kids should start being sexually active at 12! That'd be insane!Scotty: No, it's not an end-all, be-all solution, and no, of course your not just gonna whip it out, I recall a Seinfeld episode about that..., and if it were actually an adequate solution, I'm saying for the urge to have sex, and although we may be hornier than rabbits, , there probably isn't a teenage boy alive that wants it ALL the time...That's exactly what I'm talking about, too, in terms of education. What classifies as it, and it doesn't need to involve forcing at all, or a woman you don't even know! Great point!!Sorry for this being so long...:)