In reply to: It's kind of hard to follow the cause-and-effect. Can you explain it? For example, there are some religions that believe in reincarnation basically that if there is a family memeber or friend that dies and then returns in the form of an animal, they refuse to eat that animal for fear that it may be that very same family member. So there are probably people who are dying from starvation because of this. I actually do believe that religion can make a better person actually. It just depends on how that person uses it. There are some crazy, psychotic, nut-cased religionists out there that people might want to avoid for their own safety. But there are also people whose attitudes are changed completely because of religion. I know tons of other teens and adults whose lives have made an abrupt turn ever since. Same goes for me. It's sort of like (and I'm going to use my own religion for an example) when you know that there is a purpose for everything despite all the crap you go through or even though you may think everyone hates you and you're all alone, when you realize there is actually someone that still cares for you and always loves you it just makes things alot easier. You don't have to hate everyone for the smallest things, you lose sight of racism, sexism, etc. You'll find yourself caring for someone that you've never even seen before in your life but will go out of your way to make sure there ok (that rhymed). Happens to me too many times. And this can also happen many times with people who aren't into any religions. But during the part of my time and the people I'm with I've seen it happen all too many times and it rarely shows a negative outcome. One thing I've definately noticed and this is something that's gotten serious are people who are prejudice against others that aren't of their religion. That I agree with. I can't number how many times I've been trampled upon by evolutionists, buddhists, scientologists, etc. Mostly by people who aren't of a religion. The conversation usually starts out with a "You know God's not real right?" and so on after that. That's what I get for praying in public. Christians definately have a problem also. I've noticed most who always mention going to hell for the most absurd things and those who act like non-Christians are the demons. Just a little out of hand. So I guess religion can be harmful to society most of the times but sometimes it's not.
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Religion harmful to society?
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You cant just say religion is bad on a whole and causes higher rates of crime, that is a very generalised statement. There are many kinds of religion and many places where that religious worship goes on. Personaly I think that was a very sloppy argument that didnt have much factual evidence and was very very generalised.
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> You cant just say religion is bad on a whole and causes higher rates of crime, that is a very generalised statement.
Believe it or not, there are actual statistics for people in the U.S. who consider themselves religious versus people who don't, and the religious folks did slightly worse in the crime categories measured (I believe they were things like theft). In any case, you can argue with the validity of the study, but you can't argue with the fact that there is no good evidence that religion or religious belief makes a person "better", in terms of being less violent, more generous, etc.
When I critique certain of your behaviors as being un-Christian, you tell me you're not a good Christian. That is the problem. A lot of religious people think they're good just because the believe in God, even if they don't act very good toward their fellow man. If you believe Matthew, Jesus took the "be a good person, especially toward the least among us" think pretty seriously. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians have turned their religion into a death cult.
You think my arguments suck? Then make the case that religion makes people more civilized, more educated, more generous, and better in general.
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Because it teaches beliefs that corespond with the laws of socioty. If people followed them then yes it would make them "a better person", I very huge majority of people class themselves as religious even thought they dont attend churchs or even do what the belief teaches. Im sure if the survay was taken on people who attended a religious meeting on a regular basis and who were more religiously involved the statistics would be differant. ANd how many people who are actualy classed as religious even attend church? My old town "American Fork" Used to be one of the safest towns in america to live in, I dunno what it ranked but it was very high, that was vastly populated by christian people. I didnt see Jesus making them steal my mail or kill my family pets when I was there. I would make a case saying it makes people more civilized but I really cant be bothered looking up statistics and blady blah. I'm talking from personal experiance, I have met alot of athiests and alot of religious people. All the athiests I have met have been worse on average than the religious people (in sociotys eyes anyway). Not saying athists are bad because theyre not but all the "bad eggs" as some may put it, that I have met have been athiest. Also I speak from first hand experiance, if I didnt have religion when I was growing up I would have done some pretty horriable shit. So considering that most religions teach to follow things that are rules in socioty why would relligion help improve crime rates? "Dear god help me hotwire this car so I can go rape some hookers".
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I didnt see Jesus making them steal my mail or kill my family pets when I was there.You know that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that people do what they want to do, and religion doesn't stop them from doing the wrong thing. People rationalize. They figure God will overlook their one little transgression.It makes me think of the Mafiosi who'd beat the crap out of and kill people, and then go to church on Sunday, confess their sins, say a few Hail Marys, be absolved, and do the same thing all over again the next week.> I would make a case saying it makes people more civilized but I really cant be bothered looking up statistics and blady blah.It's nice that you would say that. Now support your case. It's doubtful that you will find statistics on this. You need to look back on history and see. Were the Dark Ages civilized, when the Catholic Church controlled Europe in cahoots with the royals?> I'm talking from personal experiance, I have met alot of athiests and alot of religious people.Jesus said to turn the other cheek. I haven't been in a physical figbt since I was 11. You seem to engage in them regularly. I'm a better Christian than you are, and I'm an atheist.But such anecdotal observations are pointless. You can subjectively observe whatever you want to, and come to whatever conclusions you like.> if I didnt have religion when I was growing up I would have done some pretty horriable shit.Even more horrible than drinking and fighting all the time? Like what kind of stuff? Would you have gone on a killing spree?> So considering that most religions teach to follow things that are rules in socioty why would relligion help improve crime rates?I assume you meant, "Why wouldn't they help...?" I don't know what the answer is, but in any case, it seems that they don't. By pretty much any measure, the U.S. is more religious than England, France, Holland, Sweden, etc., but the rate of violent crime is much higher in the U.S. than it is in those countries.Who are flying airplanes into buildings, blowing up subways, and blowing up themselves? Really religious people, or really secular people?I might not be able to explain to your satisfaction why these things are true, but that does not mean that they are true. Airplanes don't fall out of the sky just because they seem like they should, and I can't explain why they don't.
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\>Who are flying airplanes into buildings, blowing up subways, and blowing up themselves? Really religious people, or really secular people?
Religious extremists, nut jobs basicaly. The religion doesnt say to fly a plane into a building though you seem to be emplying that all musilems blow themselves up and kill people as part of their religion.
\>Even more horrible than drinking and fighting all the time?
Yup I drink and fight every day I make people bite the curb then stamp on their head because it gives me a boner. Im not bothering arguing with you about that because I know you try to piss me off because it gives you some kind of sexual gratification.
\>Like what kind of stuff?
I would rather not go into it.
\>I assume you meant, "Why wouldn't they help...?"
No... no I didnt.
\>It makes me think of the Mafiosi who'd beat the crap out of and kill people, and then go to church on Sunday, confess their sins, say a few Hail Marys, be absolved, and do the same thing all over again the next week.
I dont know how most churches are but in my one you cant do that. -
Is there any evidence anywhere that religion has a positive effect? I cant prove shit, its jsut my opinion but i think that it does.Im going to piss some people of with this opinion but so be it its mine and Ill say it.Im an athiest myself and Im against organized religion because it puts too few in toomuch control. I do however think that it does some good.There are people who would totally run amok if they thought they would not have to pay for it forever in the afterlife and it curbs those specific fews behavior.Alot of good is done int he name of god as well, donations of ood and moeny, alot of that comes in from various churches. now there may or maynot be some conditions that its administered to specific people or people need to join the church or something to get it. I dont know, I think its possible but I cant say that yes there is so its not really good since you have to join in order to recieve its benifits. No matter what it does do some good and christian aid supports alot of people. I give alot of clothing and blankets and stuff that I have no need of o the kids outgrew or what ever to a homeless shelter about an hour from me. Im not into the whole christian scene but that shelter is run by a christian coalition that distributes it to anyone who comes to the shleter. I give it they give it out, I may be providing it but they have the connection to get it to those who need it and I dont, so they are doing some good and are religion based.For the record I dont take the tax write off, I stay nameless evey time I drop it off and there has been loads since my grandparents died because I thought it important that there stu that was of no use or want ot the family do good for someone else.I started ranting and typing and forgot where I was going in my total argument so Ill conclude this by jsut saying hta tit does do some good. Maybe its not saving the world, and I dont agree with the whole god part of it but I dont care who worships who so long as Im left out of it to do what I want.ind me an atheist orginization on my local level that accepts clothing and blankets and items to distrube to the poor and homeless and Ill take my donations there. There is also those that need it like a crutch that couldnt go thru life thinking that there is nothing else. It does good for them as wel since it allows them to get out of the house and have some type of life and contribute in some way to society.As a final thought I give you that Mormon bishops daughteres were the dirtiest nastiest (I mean that in a good way) girls I ever met and nailed, so it gave me a good time if nothing else.
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Alot of good is done int he name of god as well, donations of ood and moeny, alot of that comes in from various churches.And there are Christian groups in Darfur, trying to help deal with the genocide of black Christians in Darfur, Sudan. That is good. The born-again Christian U.S. president doesn't seem to care much about it. The great majority of Christians, though, don't know about it, and don't care.> now there may or maynot be some conditions that its administered to specific people or people need to join the church or something to get it.A friend of mine is a member of a church that is very generous...toward it's own lilly-white members. (By the way, churches are the last seriously-segregated large instututions.) I wonder how much money that churches collect goes to the needy. I'll bet it's a very small amount, in most cases. I've been in some arcitecturally amazing churches and synagogues, so I know where most of their money went.> No matter what it does do some good and christian aid supports alot of people.That's true, and there are a lot of secular instututions that do the same. Are people generous because it's the right thing to do, or are people generous because their religion tells them to be? If the latter is true, then people are beasts. I hope it's not true.> I give alot of clothing and blankets and stuff that I have no need of o the kids outgrew or what ever to a homeless shelter about an hour from me.You live in an area where the church and religion are involved in everything. In most areas, there are organizations like Goodwill Industries and other such organizations. When I lived in Massachusetts, I contributed to a food pantry that served the needy, and wasn't affiliated with any religion. In fact, I'm not aware of any similar religious organization in that area. In Boston itself, there were church-supported rescue missions, so there certainly were religious folks who were doing good things. But there were also plenty of non-religious folks who were doing good things as well.At the end of it all, religious and non-religious charitable organizations do good things, but in most communities, they work around the margins. It's really up to government to pick up the slack. Unfortunately, many religious folks fight tooth and nail against the government assisting the needy.The result is things like 45 million people (and rising) going without adequate health care. Many of them are children.At the end of it all, the U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the world, and one of the least generous. Most people have a greatly inflated idea of how much of our wealth is given as foreign aid. It's something like 0.6% of our GDP (my memory says), which is far less than what most well-off countries donate. For personal donations, we send money to whatever cause gets the most television coverage, and then get bored. Lots of people from New Orleans are about to lose their temporary housing. Does anybody care?It's really sad to think that people are doing the right thing for the wrong (selfish) reason: That they share their stuff because they're afraid they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't, rather than it's the right thing.I wonder why it's not like that in Western Europe, which is far more generous and far less religious than the U.S. Is there a defect in the American character?
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In reply to:
> if I didnt have religion when I was growing up I would have done some pretty horriable shit.
Even more horrible than drinking and fighting all the time? Like what kind of stuff? Would you have gone on a killing spree?
Actually he's right in some parts. There's a guy in our church who was addicted to pornography since he was 8 and he was a pedophile. He's 29 now and his story is really sad from what he's gone through from a child with the murder of his parents and all that. But his life has changed dramatically since he became a christian. I mean really really dramatically.