Three Things About Islam

---

I would love to tag along! Thor could overcome his fears and come too.Saint Elias church in Aleppo(Supposedly) Ananias' house on Straight Street, old Damascus

thor, if I may give some unsought and unwanted advice, I would mention that Francis Bacon in one of his Essays said that if you want a committee to decide some question, you shouldn't populate it half-and-half with people with strong views on both sides, but with undecided people from the middle. When looking to bolster your case, you seem to look for people who already strongly support your own views. The result is that you have put up a number of liars and nut-cases who offend principles of truth and reason, and thereby end up weakening your argument in the eyes of others.You would do much better to look for sources that are knowledgeable and scholarly, and see what they say. Look for quality and even-handedness of scholarship, and let the results be as they may.

Originally Posted By: IneligibleWhen looking to bolster your case, you seem to look for people who already strongly support your own views. The result is that you have put up a number of liars and nut-cases who offend principles of truth and reason, and thereby end up weakening your argument in the eyes of others.Spoken in classic liberal format. Instead of attacking the position, you attack the people...and the biggest liars are always the first to call others liars. Keep that in mind next time you think about pointing the finger at somebody else.As I said, I don't agree with everything he says...but what he says concerning Islam is spot on. And you can't deny it, or you already would have.

Originally Posted By: IneligibleI haven't seen any evidence that they are familiar with mainstream Islamic Quranic exegesis...That's because you aren't trying to find it...you'd rather not find it. Since you didn't listen to the whole thing, you'll never know...and I'm quite certain that's the way you like it. Quote:...which is what is needed here. What was needed was a glimpse of what life is like among Muslims once their percentage of the population grows beyond a certain point. That glimpse has now been provided...whether you choose to look at it or not.

Originally Posted By: thorAnd the Koran tells them to lie to infidels just like you. Do you actually believe you're special somehow? Originally Posted By: thor...and the biggest liars are always the first to call others liars. Keep that in mind next time you think about pointing the finger at somebody else.IRONY ALERT

Quote:Spoken in classic liberal format. Instead of attacking the position, you attack the people...and the biggest liars are always the first to call others liars. Keep that in mind next time you think about pointing the finger at somebody else.I think bob has disposed of that comment very nicely. Hoist by your own petard! Quote:As I said, I don't agree with everything he says...but what he says concerning Islam is spot on.Why should anyone believe that, of a man who thinks the origin of the word 'Utopia' disproves the existence of a Muslim heaven? Quote:And you can't deny it, or you already would have.I already have denied it - can't you see? In the bit I heard there was barely a statement that was not false. The man is simply not a trustworthy guide. Quote:That's because you aren't trying to find it...you'd rather not find it.I would be interested to find it. But you can't provide it, so you revert to your usual bluster, sigh. Quote:What was needed was a glimpse of what life is like among Muslims once their percentage of the population grows beyond a certain point.What point is that, thor? Is life in, say, Turkey, so mysterious?Has it ever crossed your mind, thor, that you damage your favourite causes by arguing for them? For each person, there are some things he/she shouldn't do, due to sheer incompetence. In my case the list is quite long, and includes a lot of handyman tasks where I make what I am trying to fix much worse. Reasoning is not your strong suit.

Originally Posted By: Ineligible Quote:Spoken in classic liberal format. Instead of attacking the position, you attack the people...and the biggest liars are always the first to call others liars. Keep that in mind next time you think about pointing the finger at somebody else.I think bob has disposed of that comment very nicely. Hoist by your own petard!Go ahead...check the book. Then we'll know who's telling the lies and who isn't. Quote:Has it ever crossed your mind, thor, that you damage your favourite causes by arguing for them? For each person, there are some things he/she shouldn't do, due to sheer incompetence. In my case the list is quite long, and includes a lot of handyman tasks where I make what I am trying to fix much worse. Reasoning is not your strong suit. LOL! Spoken like Satan himself...as somebody who badly wants somebody else to go away. Sorry, big guy...not happening.

Everything has some hidden agenda for you, doesn't it, thor? What an exhausting and fearful life you must lead. You must miss out on a lot of good things.

Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: IneligibleWhen looking to bolster your case, you seem to look for people who already strongly support your own views. The result is that you have put up a number of liars and nut-cases who offend principles of truth and reason, and thereby end up weakening your argument in the eyes of others.Spoken in classic liberal format. Instead of attacking the position, you attack the people...and the biggest liars are always the first to call others liars. Keep that in mind next time you think about pointing the finger at somebody else.As I said, I don't agree with everything he says...but what he says concerning Islam is spot on. And you can't deny it, or you already would have. Are you serious?!? Are you going to call me a liberal if I agree with him? Seriously...there are ways to make a point and then there are ways to drive people away. I have to be honest, there are times when you are arguing something that I actually agree with, but I'm actually cringing at the way you go about it. All he is trying to say is that there might actually be well respected, even-handed people who are agreeing with you. But you can't be lazy. You can't just keep pulling out crap from people that you know others here have no respect for and expecting them to read/watch them with an open mind. There is a such thing as credible source. Or are you choosing your references in hope that folks here will question them so you can in turn call them liberal idiots?Maybe if you would step back a bit and look at things clearly and objectively, you would see that folks here, whether they be liberal, atheist, muppets, or whatever, are willing to engage in fair conversation with you. I've seen Bob attempt it several times. But you always respond by whacking them over the head and calling them names. That's not necessary. And you've sort of painted yourself into a corner to where you aren't going to be taken seriously. And what really pisses me off, Thor, is that I have to fight hard to not be thrown into that corner with you. I'm a Christian. I'm a Conservative. And people here know these things about me. And you really piss me off sometimes when you make me feel like I'm going to be painted with the same broad brush.Just stop it already.

damien...long story short, if you're going to be a Christian, you can't be so concerned about what other people think. I sympathize with how you feel, but you're going to have to deal with your own issues and stop foisting them on others. You need to make a choice about where you stand on an issue and voice it...based on what you believe, and not on what you think others will think.

Right. What you got out of that is I care more about what others think then I do about truth. Wow.And you're basically saying that you're more interested in calling others names than you are bringing them to any truth.Sigh...I can't help you anymore Thor.

thor, I know some small churches teach that - but Paul had a different view. He cared very much what other people thought. He told the Corinthians, "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1Cor 14:23).Paul also said, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." (1Cor 9:19-22).Doesn't that suggest a different attitude?

Originally Posted By: Ineligiblethor, I know some small churches teach that - but Paul had a different view. He cared very much what other people thought. He told the Corinthians, "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1Cor 14:23).Sounds strange to me since I use the KJV, but a believe (if it's the passage I'm thinking of) that Paul was making a point that there needs to be an interpretation whenever tongues were spoken in church...not that we should care if others think we're mad. Do you choose to please man or God? Quote:Paul also said, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." (1Cor 9:19-22).Doesn't that suggest a different attitude? No. It suggests to me that Pual was willing to meet people where they are at...to go to them wherever they are at. But this does not mean compromising your Biblicaly principles in order to do so. One does not become a pimp just to be able to minister to hookers.

No question about not sacrificing Biblical principles. But being offensive is not a Biblical principle, and it opposes the work of God. It is not a precondition of pleasing God that we must displease men. Indeed, we should seek to please men as much as we can, consistent with duty to God. That is part of loving one's neighbour.1 Cor 14:23 in KJV is "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" - not very different from NIV, indeed a bit gutsier. It seems clear that Paul did very much care if people thought Christians were mad, or he wouldn't have made the comment. Indeed, he obviously assumes that his readers in Corinth will also take for granted that being thought mad by unbelievers would be a bad thing.I fully agree that Paul was willing to go to people where they were at. And so should we. Consider Paul's speech in Athens (Acts 17:22-31). It starts:Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you."See how he says that the Greeks already worship God, but just don't know Him properly?

I'll add Luke 2:52 "And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

Seems that being seen favorably by men was pretty important to Jesus, or at least Luke.

I also echo your thoughts on being offensive. There are those, and I've met too many of them, who believe that to be Christian means to be offensive. That is not supported anywhere and, in fact, there's evidence to the contrary. I think what is happening is that these people are taking the idea from scripture that the Gospel offends and using it as permission to be offensive themselves.

We are all memebers of the body of Christ...but to assume we are all to play the same part as one another is to be ignorant of Paul's words concering this, at best. Don't expect everybody to play the same role as you...as if it's the only valuable role God has for us. To believe so is, as I've said, to be ignorant of the Bible's words on this...and perhaps, in some cases, even arrogant as to ones own role at that of being the most important one.

Some views on the ground-zero mosque that ring true:

1

2

...and for Inegligible:

!

Note that, as an ex-Muslim terrorist, he would know much more about what Islam is all about than you or I...though, interestingly, he agrees with my point of view. The only remaining question is: How determined are you to keep your head buried in the sand?

I wonder how you decide something 'rings true', thor? Calling two blocks 'a few yards' doesn't ring true to me. Those videos sound like a polemic rather than an attempt to find the truth.

I am very much afraid that you decide whether something 'rings true' by the test that it must fail to disagree with any of your prior views.

That Walid Shoebat is an ex-Muslim terrorist seems very doubtful - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat

Originally Posted By: IneligibleI am very much afraid that you decide whether something 'rings true' by the test that it must fail to disagree with any of your prior views.Do you always have fear of what you are hoping for? I'd see a psychatrist if I were you.  Quote:That Walid Shoebat is an ex-Muslim terrorist seems very doubtful - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat The point you attempt to skirt is HE KNOWS BETTER THAN YOU!

Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: IneligibleI am very much afraid that you decide whether something 'rings true' by the test that it must fail to disagree with any of your prior views.Do you always have fear of what you are hoping for? I'd see a psychatrist if I were you. What possible relevance does that statement have? The point is the question of how you judge the truth of a statement. If you decide a statement is true merely because it agrees with what you already believe, and it is false merely if it disagrees with what you already believe, you are ensuring that no false belief you have can ever be corrected. That is not mentally healthy; nor is it honest. Originally Posted By: thor Quote:That Walid Shoebat is an ex-Muslim terrorist seems very doubtful - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat The point you attempt to skirt is HE KNOWS BETTER THAN YOU! The point you are attempting to skirt is that he appears to have lied about his past, and therefore we can have no confidence that he does know what he is talking about, or that he is not lying about it.It doesn't help your argument to put it in capitals. I an reminded of the old story of the preacher's marginal note: "Argument weak here - speak loudly".

I love these Islam topics. Being a Muslim in the US and marrying a Christian woman, I have experienced all the stereotypes and such all of which is utter bullcrap. All I have to say is in terms of an outside view, one is NOT better than the other and one is NOT worse than the other. Religious debates will continue on and on just like politics and will always have biased people fighting against each other. Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: damienI think I'll grab a Christian buddy, a black man, and a Muslim, and do a 50 churches in 50 days trip through Syria. See what kind of reactions I get. Try it and you may not come back alive. You have got to be fucking kidding me. What kind of damn ignorance are you spewing? My wife and I have traveled to Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon multiple times, and we are clearly still "alive."