Gay Married.... How to keep wife satisfied?

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i agree with you on pretty much everything, except the bit about the kitchen knife and the throat, i imagine its pretty damn painful for however long it actually takes for that person to die (i know i nit pick the stupidest things)

Quote:...I cannot, for one moment, think of a SINGLE MORE DESPICABLE THING you could do to her than the thing you are already planning. You are single-mindedly prepared to steal this woman’s life for your own selfish ends. ...it is the most selfish thing I have read on an internet personal issues forum in a VERY LONG TIME.You need to snap yourself out of your own selfishness, get some respect for women and also some courage of your own...You need to stop using women as some sort of veneer of respectability, and wake up to who you are, and have some respect for who they are also. Now to me that's saying he's a bad person, whether that was your intent or not.>>>"He has stated his reasons for entering into a heterosexual marriage rest on his religion, his need for social acceptance, and his desire to have a family."Who are we to question his beliefs in his religion or his culture. Those two things are what make up a great part of the sum of most people and telling them to just throw those things aside might incite as melodramatic a response as you opting to have your throat slit rather than to have been deceived by your husband's hidden sexuality.We can not forget that the vast majority of the world is not New York, Rio De Janeiro, Dublin or Hong Kong. Most of it is the unaccepting, backward, sticks. It's one thing to state our opinion candidly but it's quite another to berate someone about their actions without knowing all the facts.

Firstly OldFolks, we've no idea where the OP is living, and it is as reasonable to assume he is a fundamentalist Christian in North America as it is to assume he is a Muslim living in the Middle East, more so, I'd imagine, given the the ratio of internet access is FAR higher in the Western world.The comments you've highlighted refer to my feelings towards this mans INTENTIONS; not his character. You'll note I said: "I cannot, for one moment, think of a SINGLE MORE DESPICABLE THING you could do to her than the thing you are already planning." - Not: "I cannot imagine a more despicable PERSON"Also, nowhere here have I called into question his religion or his culture; the single thing I have called into question here is his clearly cruel and selfish intent. Also, while we are on the subject of religion; whatever the OP's religious beliefs, I'd be very surprised if they condone a lifetime of deception.Also, you might think it is melodramatic to prefer a few moments of extreme physical pain than a lifetime of emotional and psychological suffering and if so that's your view to which you are entitled, but personally I do not think the two are remotely comparable. I've had my ribs and my heart broken, and I know which hurt worst.

starfish: It is really, really sad that your entire life/existence would hinge upon the love of another human being. It is really, really sad that you would be willing to have your throat slit if that individual's love for you was not based on genuine sexual attraction to you, no matter how hard he tried to love you through a handicap that is not of his own making. It is really, really sad, that you would reduce the purpose of your entire life/existence to this love of the flesh, rather than to the servitude/worship of God.It is also sad that you would rather see someone like Roc or myself relegated to a "single sexless life" of loneliness, and to be severed from his/my own parents and siblings for 22 years than to take him/me by the hand and encourage him/me to try to fight/live through the handicap - as hard hard as it may be - and pull him/me back into the fold of society. Believe me, the woman in this relationship is not the only victim here. There are MANY a woman who will want a husband who will TRY to be ALL her own; help her become a mother and raise their children together to become honorable citizens of the world and worshippers of the Creator; though that husband may not be fully capable of lusting for her, than a "straight", cheating husband who will sleep around whenever she looks the other way and she will end up slitting her own throat anyway.If the love/lust of that one mortal individual is the whole purpose of your life/existence, then I feel more sorry for you than I do for myself.

The key to this problem is that even though you are a "victim"... you are creating another. Is that fair to her? I believe we all empathize with your predicament.. but do not think its fair to create another victim based on a (your) lie.

It is really, really sad that your entire life/existence would hinge upon the love of another human beingThen there are a lot really, really sad people out there.> There are MANY a woman who will want a husband who will TRY to be ALL her own; help her become a mother and raise their children together to become honorable citizens of the world and worshippers of the CreatorAre there? How do you know this? You think some women would have no problem at all being married to someone who has no feelings for her whatsoever?And like sdp said, you may be a victim, but why make someone else another victim?Also, stop calling your sexuality a handicap.

Originally Posted By: LTTA> Are there? How do you know this? You think some women would have no problem at all being married to someone who has no feelings for her whatsoever?And like sdp said, you may be a victim, but why make someone else another victim?Also, stop calling your sexuality a handicap. I am not denying that someone else is also being victimised and the whole purpose of this thread has been to seek advice on how to make the woman less of a victim, for as much as humanly possible. I do carry a feeling of guilt and I am weighing the lesser of evils in this imperfect world. That said, I do know for fact that lots of women would rather be married to a gay person, or even share a husband with other women, as is allowed in certain religions/communities, than not be married at all and miss the opportunity to fulfill their natural instinct to become mothers. It is also not for you to tell me what to call my sexuality. If I view it as a handicap to living a full, healthy family life, then that's my prerogative. You will not stifle my freedom of opinion and expression. You may call yours a choice or your lifestyle, as health insurance companies/lobbyists have led you to believe, but that is yours.

I am not denying that someone else is also being victimised and the whole purpose of this thread has been to seek advice on how to make the woman less of a victim, for as much as humanly possible. I do carry a feeling of guilt and I am weighing the lesser of evils in this imperfect world.So you knowingly decide to make some woman a victim? And you see nothing wrong with that?In that case, I hope no woman decides to marry you, because she wouldn't deserve it.> That said, I do know for fact that lots of women would rather be married to a gay person, or even share a husband with other women, as is allowed in certain religions/communities, than not be married at all and miss the opportunity to fulfill their natural instinct to become mothers.If there's lots of women like that out there, then you should have no problem finding one to marry you and have a family, right?> It is also not for you to tell me what to call my sexuality. If I view it as a handicap to living a full, healthy family life, then that's my prerogative.It only becomes a handicap becaue you make it one. But if you want to feel sorry for yourself and consider it a handicap, be my guest.> You may call yours a choice or your lifestyle, as health insurance companies/lobbyists have led you to believeWhat in the world are you talking about? Health insurance companies? Lobbyists?

Originally Posted By: JaseThat said, I do know for fact that lots of women would rather be married to a gay person, or even share a husband with other women, as is allowed in certain religions/communities, than not be married at all and miss the opportunity to fulfill their natural instinct to become mothers. I'm calling foul on that one. First off, that's an opinion, not a fact.I, for one, would MUCH rather be single than married to ANYONE who did not love me. I'm sure I'm not alone on that one. Much better to be happy and single, than married and miserable.In modern society, many single women can be very happy on their own and still have kids. There's single moms from previous relationships, adoption, and even in vitro fertilization.

Hi Jase!! I hope you're OK. I appreciate you're desire to become a husband and a father. I think for many gay males - the idea of having children is quite strong. I know - speaking for myself - that I have often felt 'left out' knowing that when I die there will be no son or daughter of mine that will mourn my death. And most likely - few who will even care that I'm gone. I'm often haunted by that fact. But in spite of that - I chose not to burden another fellow human [Specifically - a women who was more than willing to become my wife - even though she fully understood and accepted my lack of sexual desire for her] by allowing that person to have to live with the knowledge that they would always love me in a way that I was incapable of loving them. When it comes to your desire to become a married man and have children - I think it's important to keep in mind that LOVE is anchored on HONESTY. Without honesty - there can be no LOVE. And it sounds to me that you're intending to mislead another person into believing something that is not true. Unlike the woman who was willing to marry me - you are willing to mislead a woman into believing something that is NOT true. The Christian God - at least - warns us that all LIES will eventually be revealed. And often - revealed while we are still mere mortals. So in spite of your intentions to keep your thoughts, feelings and desires to yourself [Insofar as your sexual attraction to guys is concerned] there will most likely come a time that those who love you most [Your future wife and kids] WILL discover the reality of who it is you really are. And if not - that 'secret' will reveal itself in other ways. 'Secrets' have a way of rotting things from the inside. Although everything may seem OK for awhile - on the surface - eventually a 'secret' will show itself and by the time it does - the damage has been done. You may find yourself keeping a safe, emotional distance from your wife and children - lest they get 'too close' and SEE the 'real you'. This happens a lot. People with 'secrets' become guarded and distant. And the more they struggle with keeping the 'secret' the more guarded and distant they become. Many people with 'secrets' also become alcoholics and/or drug addicts. And although that may not happen to you - I wouldn't bet against the very real possibility that - in time - you could turn your 'religion' into your 'addiction'. You may begin to act as if you are 'better than' and more 'saintly' and in doing so - start to have unrealistic expectations of your wife and kids. People often try to hide their 'secrets' by acting as if they have none at all. They also often focus all of their attention on what they perceive to be the 'secrets' of others. [If I can make someone else feel guilty for being human and flawed - then maybe they won't see that I'm human and flawed] So you see, Jase - although your desires are noble - you are going about achieving them in a veil of deceit. You are PLANNING on LYING to someone you haven't even met yet. The God that I believe in - the Christian God - frowns upon that. [To put it mildly]The ONLY WAY you can get what it is you so desperately want - and remain in good standing with God - is to be upfront and honest with any women that you would like to marry. Anything short of total honesty would be considered - by me at least - the very first step in a future fraught with great sadness. And not just for you - but for your wife and whoever it is that you both bring into this world. That all said... The Christian God has great respect for those who choose to remain single. For the single person can dedicate far more of his or her time on doing those things that are most pleasing to God. Please give yourself plenty of time to consider what it is you do next. GREAT BIG HUGCraig!!

Originally Posted By: Jase starfish: It is really, really sad that your entire life/existence would hinge upon the love of another human being. It is really, really sad that you would be willing to have your throat slit if that individual's love for you was not based on genuine sexual attraction to you, no matter how hard he tried to love you through a handicap that is not of his own making. Well Jase, this is another point on which you and I diverge. I do not view homosexuality as a handicap; in fact the only situation in which homosexuality could be viewed as any aspect of a handicap is the one you are willfully placing yourself in, which is in the deliberate deception of a heterosexual partner, and even then, it is not your homosexuality which forms the handicap - it is your refusal to embrace it. Originally Posted By: JaseIt is really, really sad, that you would reduce the purpose of your entire life/existence to this love of the flesh, rather than to the servitude/worship of God.Love of the flesh? Sounds like you could do with taking a fresh look at the world - minus the religious dogma that you've been allowing to dictate to you and make your life so miserable. It is not 'love of the flesh' that's at issue here; it is respect for the honesty that exists between two people who've pledged to spend their lives together, but I suppose I'm wasting my time talking here, because you do not seem to view respect for honesty between people as even relevant, never mind sacrosanct.  Originally Posted By: JaseIt is also sad that you would rather see someone like Roc or myself relegated to a "single sexless life" of loneliness, and to be severed from his/my own parents and siblings for 22 years than to take him/me by the hand and encourage him/me to try to fight/live through the handicap - as hard hard as it may be - and pull him/me back into the fold of society. Firstly, you are attributing a comment to me which I did not make. Go back and read the posts properly. Secondly, if you're waiting for me to take you "by the hand" and ruin some womans life you're in for a looooooooong wait. Also, if you study your Bible or Koran or Torah or whatever Holy book you place your faith in, I am quite sure you will be in for a long wait in looking for encouragement towards those ends from that book also. I have yet to hear of a religion that condones the deception you are currently planning. Originally Posted By: JaseBelieve me, the woman in this relationship is not the only victim here. She is the only UNWILLING victim; you, on the other hand, are ACCEPTING victimisation; and you are making that decision both for yourself and for an unaware participant - in terms of victimisation, that puts you and her in two VERY different categories.  Originally Posted By: JaseThere are MANY a woman who will want a husband who will TRY to be ALL her own; help her become a mother and raise their children together to become honorable citizens of the world and worshippers of the Creator; though that husband may not be fully capable of lusting for her, than a "straight", cheating husband who will sleep around whenever she looks the other way..Why are you presenting a womans choices as though the above were the only two available to her??? I'm with my male straight partner the better part of six years and we both do our lusting at home. If you're trying to make your planned deception more palatable to yourself by imagining you are saving some woman from a straight partner who is, by virtue of his sexuality, certain to cheat on her you are deluding yourself, and if you are trying to make it more palatable to the readers of this thread you are deluding no one.Also, if there is, as you say: "MANY a woman who will want a husband who will TRY to be ALL her own" well then, what is your problem?? Why even bother posting about it? Why not just go out and meet one of these multitude of willing women?  Originally Posted By: JaseIf the love/lust of that one mortal individual is the whole purpose of your life/existence, then I feel more sorry for you than I do for myself. It is not the love or lust of "one mortal individual" that is at issue here; it is the honesty that forms the foundation of a lifelong partnership, and without that no partnership is even worthy of the name. Honesty is a cornerstone of every world religion I can think of, and it is a REAL pity you have chosen to ignore that. You needn't bother feeling sorry for me; that is wasted energy indeed. If you want to feel sorry for anyone you ought to be feeling sorry for the person whose life you are planning to destroy.And no, I don't think you're necessarily a bad person; I think you're far more likely a good person who is currently crippled by his own cowardice, so much so he is prepared to make a victim out of someone else in order to shield himself from having to deal with his own issues - that is cowardice and you need to confront it. Good people make bad choices every day; it is part of the human condition, but if you go ahead and do this, just be aware that your decision is made up of selfishness and cowardice and is an exercise in the practical application of deceit. I also think it is the lowest form of thievery; I think most people would rather be robbed of everything they own than be robbed of their confidence, trust, and the next thirty years of their life. You need to stop trying to varnish this to look like something it isn't and wake up and start viewing what you're about to do in real terms. There are support groups for women who've been put through the emotional nightmare you have in store for some unsuspecting woman; maybe that'd be a good place for you to start. Maybe find one of these groups on the internet and hear what THOSE women have to say to you. I am quite sure that, by comparison, what I am saying would begin to sound like positive encouragement.

First I think you make some good points, being gay is nto a choice, its not a lifestyle, its a genetic code programed into you at your conception, or at least in the developmental process from a embryo to a baby. Ill even agreee that there are some women who would rather be married to a gay man, and skip the sex, just have the financial security.Your not talking about being rich and having some woman as a show piece to keep your being gay a secret, to posture for the world to make continued success easier because you fit the perceived profile of a man.You ask for advice on how to make the woman you marry less of a victim. There is no way to do that, you have the right to be happy, so long as its not at the cost of someone else being happy. You cant be less of a victim, either your a victim or your not.I understand wanting to cover up being gay, and making certain no one knows you are, to get through high school or even college with the way shit is I even advocate pretending to be something your not if for no reason other than not having your ass kicked daily by some redneck fuck-tarded hick.At some point however your going to have to grow up, and be who you are, If you dont you will never be happy. How can you be when your living a lie? besides the damage to the woman and the children, what about the fact your fucking yourself out of love? No one said being gay is easy, the ridicule, the beatings that your likely to receive for a choice that wasnt yours to begin with. At some point you have to stand up and be who you are, for better or for ill. I think that there are far more gay people in the world than is currently believed, all living a lie, covering up who they are, if they all stood up, demanded to be counted, I think youd see a nearly over night change in the the treatment of gays and in gay rights. Every one that hides in a shell pretending to be straight only further harms the movement to be treated as equals instead of third or fourth class citizens that should be scorned and shit on.

I think its a pretty easy situation to sympathize with.Who hasnt been bullied at some point in their lives because they didnt meet status quo ? and fucking over someone is just perpetuation the abuse, it makes nothing better for anyone and only makes a new victim.Its a thread that I think most people could get behind and even if they are not gay relate to it in some basic way.

Originally Posted By: OldFolksIf you believe homosexuality is a sin, than there should be no sin in telling your mate that you have these feeling and are doing what you can to deal with them. That way she can support you and understand what it is your going through. You can approach your "problem" as a couple and work on it and pray about it together. Maybe you could use it as building block of your relationship that brings you two closer together rather than something that exists between you driving you apart.Jase, is this something that you could consider without putting yourself in eminent danger of expulsion or worse? Can you get help in going through this from your religious leader and your soon to be spouse, if you believe it to be a sin? Can at least your religious community support you and your lady and help you all through this?I'm sure they have got to have better support for what your searching for than coming here and being berated for your beliefs. While I don't agree with your beliefs (I'm a bisexual, agnostic, Catholic, pagan idolatrist who's only real religious belief falls more along the lines of ancestor worship, but) I think you know I respect your right to believe as you do in as much as you don't try to condemn me or restrict me by your beliefs. The important thing is that you not try to go through this alone. You know, I'm here to talk to, and will always be open to talk to you in a respectful nonjudgmental way, but I've got to believe your religious community would be willing to help you with this more than anyone else is capable.While I don't believe being gay is "wrong" or a "handicap" or is in any way a sin I must wonder what it is besides, maybe, embarrassment that makes you not want to discuss this with your religious leaders. I mean we can not help what we feel. Do you think there is a possibility that the officials of your faith could council you and your soon to be wife on this. I don't think, as you see it, you've done anything wrong in the eyes of god yet so I don't think any banishment from your community would be forthcoming, would it? I don't know I'm just putting it out there.Please consider being open with this woman and seeking council within your faith in addition to this place. We'll still be here and be willing to help. I just ask you to give it some thought no matter how scary it might be. Just think about it. Spend some time thinking about it. Get used to the idea of talking to your religious man about it. Just think about it. If you need advise or encouragement about how to approach him or her with this we're here to offer what help we can, limited though it may be.Just think about it.

Nice point Scotty, while I tell him to think of what hes doing I really have no offering of where to turn to for help.It all pisses me off,Julzs uncle is gay, has a disease that is making him go blind (not related to his being gay!) and is living with his dad since he and his boy friend broke up. Always being told to pray for being cured and shit, that attitude is what kept me from suggesting that he seek any help with his church. Its not something that can be cured, its not a choice and thats how they view it.I suppose if you have a more open church that cares about people maybe they could help jase to find a solution to his dilemma.I simply rule them out because of what Iv seen here.Its the shits he will never be a father, they couldnt even adopt in this shit hole state and he would of made a great father, Iv seen him playing and talking to my kids and Julies. Hes a hell of a good guy, makes good money and is stable. being gay is just part of him, not what defines his character.

Yeah, the thing is Jase is entitle to his beliefs whether he is a Christan Fundamentalist in north America or Muslim in Saudi Arabia. He deserves our help, support and criticism, ...where do, without berating him. It's one thing to point out the pit falls of a persons fallibility it's another to castigate them for their failings. We all have short comings, some worse than others. In my experience, limited though it admittedly is, positive encouragement is more fruitful than harsh vilification of a person putting themselves, and possibly others, in peril. Jase, appears to know his shortcomings (though only perceived, I believe some of them to be) and is dealing with them as best his faith and society have equipped him to.I would be willing to bet this guy is in enough terror as it is. We should be doing what we can to offer support and find someone to be there for him then deal with rest as he becomes capable of dealing with it.As I've said over and over, we shouldn't assume we know everything this guy is feeling and going through.

Originally Posted By: starfish

Well Jase, this is another point on which you and I diverge. I do not view homosexuality as a handicap; ...

....it is respect for the honesty that exists between two people who've pledged to spend their lives together, but I suppose I'm wasting my time talking here, because you do not seem to view respect for honesty between people as even relevant, never mind sacrosanct.

.... Also, if you study your Bible or Koran or Torah or whatever Holy book you place your faith in, I am quite sure you will be in for a long wait in looking for encouragement towards those ends from that book also. I have yet to hear of a religion that condones the deception you are currently planning.

Yes, we do diverge on this one, as much as I do diverge on the same with most everyone else on this board. To me, homosexuality is a handicap, and no, Rad, this is not gay bashing in any way, shape or form. I have the utmost compassion for people in the same predicament as that in which I find myself. And the fact that you, Rad, have been married to a WILLING woman, refutes Virtual Star's suggestion that this is just my opinion, and not a fact.

I do believe that homosexuality is a psychological/hormonal disorder of some form, which varies in severity from one person to another. I also think that most people are neither perfectly "straight" nor perfectly "gay", and that probably one's preference may shift one way or the other with time and training, albeit slowly and with great difficulty and at a tremendous cost when using the assistance of counsellors and psychiatrists. This is why I said that insurance companies and lobbyists have led people to believe that it is no disorder/handicap at all, so they would not otherwise have to incur the cost of helping people overcome it and effect change in their lives.

In my culture/religion, the only thing that counts is the INTENTION... if you have a pure intention, try your best and hardest, yet fail for reasons beyond your ability, then you can only be rewarded, not rebuked. As I have mentioned, although I have had homosexual thoughts/inclinations, I have never acted on them, and that was because I never gave up on the hope of wanting to enable that change in my preferences and hence my life. If I gave in to my desires, then change would be many times more difficult.

So, if all people fall on one point or the other on the "gay - straight" spectrum, then it is not necessarily a requirement, in a culture like mine, to profess where exactly on that spectrum you fall, before you marry. Again, the only thing that counts is how sincere and loyal you try to be to your marriage and spouse.

An "essentially gay" man may be very capable of respect, honesty, and devotion to his wife, and MAY be capable of providing full satisfaction to the wife for years on end, as evidenced by the testimony of many on this board and others, while only HE suffers... the lack of complete satisfaction from the experience and his represessed desire for an alternative. So, the talk of deception and lack of honesty is arguably baseless beyond the fact that only he knew beforehand that it would be difficult, unless and until that gay man actually betrays his wife. Wherever his mind and his fantacies wander are not a fault of his own.

And, finally, on this point, so what if your male "partner" turned out to be gay? Why would that make you slit your own throat if he never cheated on you, or even if he did? What makes his honesty and lust for you the fulcrum of your existence? Why would you not have a loftier purpose to your life that you strive to accomplish, than to revolve in the orbit of this mortal being? Why not focus your purpose on the Creator rather than the created?

And, speaking of holy books... Doesn't the Bible mention "Lot" who offered his own daughters to the "gay" men of Sodom, in hoping that they changed their ways? In Gen. 19, ... The men of Sodom sought to rape (in some translations, meet) the angels (Genesis 19:5). Lot offers the men his daughters instead, whom he says are virgins (19:8), but the men are not interested... The Qur'an does say that when the men continued their ways of homosexuality, he offered his daughters' (meaning his nation's daughters') hands in marriage. And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practicing abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters (my nation's daughters): they are purer for you (if ye marry)! [Qur'an 11:78].

The morale of the story is that God encourages change.

Originally Posted By: starfish

She is the only UNWILLING victim; you, on the other hand, are ACCEPTING victimisation; and you are making that decision both for yourself and for an unaware participant...

I agree, but in my culture/religion, homosexuality is not a subject of discussion AT ALL. So, HOW can you bring this subject up? The only consideration in marriage is loyalty and devotion, which I pledge to give.

Originally Posted By: starfish

Why are you presenting a womans choices as though the above were the only two available to her??? I'm with my male straight partner the better part of six years and we both do our lusting at home.

I am not presenting those as the only two choices, as evidenced by the fact that you seem to be living with a "partner", whom you did not call your husband, for 6 years. A vast majority of women around the world, however, do not particularly sign up for your standards on morals, and would rather be married to a gay man or to share a husband with other women, than to live for a single day with a straight man to whom they are not wed. So, do not judge others lest you be judged yourself.

Originally Posted By: starfish

Also, if there is, as you say: "MANY a woman who will want a husband who will TRY to be ALL her own" well then, what is your problem?? Why even bother posting about it? Why not just go out and meet one of these multitude of willing women?

Exactly, you finally come to the point. I did not post here to try to find a woman or to seek opinions on WHETHER I should get married, but alas, you keep coming back to that. I posted here, as I have explained, time and again, to get advice on how to expedite that change in my preferences and my life and hence to keep the wife as satisfied with what I am able to offer her, for as much as humanly possible.

I wouldnt even pretend to know what another feels or thinks, and beliefs are beliefs, your entitled to them.
I wouldnt vilify someoen for that, but since I cant know or change what he feels,my devotion is to saving a woman and the children that came form living through a violation of trust.
I think he is wrong to believe its a disorder, Java did research on that a while back, its shown and nearly proven that its a gene that carries the gay/bisexual feelings.
It is a handicap to living life in a society that deems it a sin and a choice, that i agree on.
My point is more that he needs to speak with someone, ANYONE thats not critical and condemning him to hell for being who he is and telling him god says he is bad because of how he feels and what he knows.
Jase is already a victim, there is no reason to make more victims.
Now IF he found a woman who knew he was gay, and he loved her but simply wasnt sexually interested in her and was up front about all of it with her and they BOTH accepted the situation as it is, Not only would I attend the wedding if I were able but Id buy them a fucking gift as well.
Marriage is about honesty and trust, and to marry someone under false pretenses violates everything that the marriage stands for.
I personally view marriage as a commitment between two people to love honor and trust, and I dont think you can only establish thta bond between a man and a woman, it can be between any two people man woman or two of the same.

Sorry, my post wasn't direct at you just the thread in general.

No worries, this is discussing feelings and emotions and ideas and ideals, friends dont always share identical ones.so long as we are discussing and arguing like adults I dont take offense to new data and ideas and suggestions being injected into the conversation, that indeed is part of the process for a successful discussion.carry on with out feeling impeded or that you need to save my feelings. None of your points or attacks are personal or aimed at hurting in a lashing out. Your simply defending your ideas and ideals.