Chrysler

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I simply cannot fathom the gall, audacity, ignorance, and absolute colorectal-craniosis of Chrysler president Tom LaSorda. He sits in front of a commons committee and unashamedly states that we Canadian tax payers must pay 3 times more that the government offered as a bail out loan to keep Chrysler’s manufacturing in Canada. He also said that the agreement between the CAW and GM isn’t good enough to work for Chrysler. This ass-hat suggests that the only way Chrysler can operate in Canada is if its workers make less than all domestic and foreign manufacturers.This, only weeks after Chrysler submitted their so-called “restructuring plan”. A plan that was rejected by our government because it was a copy of their submission to the US Congress with little more than a post-it note attached that said “yeah, and Canada too eh”.I have to wonder how a company, who’s own poor judgement has brought itself to it’s knees, finds the arrogance to demand help while being too lazy to even ask nicely. Not to mention that they are asking for forgiveness on a Canadian Income Tax dispute!In stark contrast, a day earlier, Toyota's Managing Director Stephen Beatty suggested ways to help the entire industry with incentives rather than bailouts."If the government wants to help the manufacturing activities of the auto sector, the best way to do that is ensure there's a healthy market for their products," Beatty said. "The fastest and most effective way to do so is to create immediate access to credit."Both Beatty and Ford Canada's chief, David Mondragon, are also suggesting some type of scrappage deal where the government will offer a further incentive above the trade-in value of an older, fuel inefficient, vehicle when buying a new car.So, in review;General Motors is looking for some bailout money and has reached a groundbreaking labour deal with the CAW.Ford isn’t asking for any bailouts but is suggesting new ways to help the market.Toyota is suggesting ways to help all automakers and their supply chains.Chrysler is asking for more bailout money and more worker concessions than anyone, including non-union companies, and backing their demands up with threats to the Canadian government and people.Where will you buy your next car?

I don't really understand the bailout policies in the US and elsewhere. I can see that to have no local car manufacturing would mean a lot of people out of work. However, the problem is that people are being more careful with their money and holding on to their present cars instead of replacing them, so demand has fallen. None of the bailouts, as far as I can make out, will change the weakness in demand. Therefore, even if all three large US car companies remain in business, they are still going to have to downsize, and so correspondingly will all the ancilliary firms that make components etc. So lots of people will be out of work anyway.The assumption seems to be that if one of the big car firms folds, one-third of local car production will disappear. But if someone has decided to buy a local car instead of a (generally better value) Japanese or Korean car, he is probably making the decision on cultural grounds, and if he can't buy his preferred brand it's likely he will choose another local brand. So my feeling is that if one goes to the wall, the other two will do better and the total number of cars made locally, and the total number of people employed, will not be all that much less. I suspect that might be the case even if two go to the wall.

Nissan![img]http://www.nissan-skyline-parts.com/image/Nissan Skyline R34 GTR.jpg[/img]

Nobody in government wants to be known as the guy responsible for dad and uncle John loosing their jobs. The auto industry, more or less, is holding this over politicians heads. Bailout money isn't going to help them...they'll just find a way to funnel it into their own pockets and continue to conduct business as usual; uncluding layoffs. Ultimately, the public gets the bill for this in the way of taxes. Same thing with the banking bailout. And if that's not bad enough, the banks are also continueing with business as usual...lending money to foreign countries so they can buy US treasury notes. That way, they can continue to make money. The individual home-owner doesn't really even figure into the equation, even though that's what the government sold the whole idea on. No accountability for what the banks were given...give me a break.

You have to remember that in the USA there is no national health care and the employers here are responsible for providing it and that the contracts with the UAW provide for health care after retirement, if I'm not mistaken. Beyond that the company has pension obligations who's funding is largely tied to the the performance of investments. These are contractual obligations that can't just be cast aside. The playing field isn't level with auto-manufactures in the rest of the world who by and large don't have these legacy obligations.>>>"But if someone has decided to buy a local car instead of a (generally better value) Japanese or Korean car, he is probably making the decision on cultural grounds, and if he can't buy his preferred brand it's likely he will choose another local brand. So"Speak for yourself. Most all the cars I've driven have been one of the big three. The Korean ricer I did have to drive I'll never by another one. It was shit and while it ran fine it fell apart quickly. I have a '98 Buick Park that's my daily driver with 259,000 miles, my previous '02 Buick Regal GS had 316,000 miles when the transmission gave out, My wife's '92 Chevy S-10 has 423,000 miles on it, mom's older Buick had 279,000 miles on it when it died, Mom's old Caddy had 350,000 or there about, My garage queen '87 Buick Grand National has 156,000 and still runs great. My current Caddy STS has 56,000 and I've never had a problem with it and it's got a hell of an engine. The two ricers I've driven just completely died at around 150,000 and 200,000, not to mention rattled like and road like a buck board wagon. Now the Ford's I've had have been unadulterated shit.I think by and large it public perception that domestic cars are shit. It's the P.C. thing to believe, if you will. The Toyota pick-up I had was a good vehicle but it cost a fortune to fix. It didn't break down but a few times but for what I shelled out to fix it I could have bought another pick-up, literally. The fix for it was more than what my down payment was. Beyond that I have a real problem with the death of the middle class car. I know every tree huggin fucker out there will berate me for it but I want a big engine and a lot of performance. And with the death of GM that's gonna be gone. What we will be left with is ricer I can't fit in. What I see happening is that we will end up with two types of cars one for poor people and one for the ultra-ultra wealthy and nothing in between. Your choices will either be a $40,000 dollar econo box hybrid shit or $250,000 dollar Ferrari. I'm sure there'll be plenty of people who'll sport tune there ricers but what have you got then? You've got a sport tuned ricer. I guess I really am a dinosaur. All I can do is sit here and hate and bemoan the fact that everyone is dragging me into the greater and greater schism between the haves and the have nots on the bandwagon of P.C. environmentalism and ignorant public perception. >>>"So my feeling is that if one goes to the wall, the other two will do better and the total number of cars made locally, and the total number of people employed, will not be all that much less. I suspect that might be the case even if two go to the wall."That's a carrion argument of logic without the reason of reality. You must remember that the other two car companies aren't the only two players in town. If one or two US car companies go under many people are going to opt for a vehicle of foreign origin. The pick up in customers at the remaining automaker(s) isn't going to be as great as the lost to the US market. The end result will be the supply chain of American components has to raise prices or go out of business. This is going to have a detrimental effect on the remaining domestic manufacture, causing even more people to move to foreign suppliers. Talk to any Ford exec. their greatest fear is that GM will go under and more than likely take them with 'em.The days of stand alone companies are long long gone. I think they pretty much died before WWII. The companies are to big to fail. I don't agree with their size but it's the reality that has to be dealt with, whether their GM or Citigroup. Simple macro-economics we've learned in college and simple supply and demand don't work that well with institutions that are that big. The loss of a million more jobs or a million more homes in an economy that is already as week as this one is not something of little consequence that the market can readily absorb.

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I want a big engine and a lot of performance
unfortunately, with American cars, what you get is a big engine with mediocre performance.
If a Dodge Viper's V10 was as efficient as a Honda S2000's I4, it would come off the line at well over 800hp. But that's totally beside the point.
The so-called domestic manufacturers are solely responsible for their predicament. Not to mention the fact that they have been outsourcing off shore for years!
I used to own a Chrysler Intrepid which had a full drive train made by Mitsubishi
I now own a Ford Fusion with a Mazda Engine, Volvo AWD system and all assembled in Mexico.

I will be buying my next car here and soon I think, but because of my past, Ill go, if at all possible with another nissan or toyota.Best fucking cars and trucks Iv ever owned, and I been through a few of them! Chrysler has long been a piece of shit.Over priced and over rated. and yes I say that from owning a few of them int he past and one in the present, never fucking again. well maybe again..if I should come across maybe a challenger or a bee or a charger...

"unfortunately, with American cars, what you get is a big engine with mediocre performance."I would dispute that. My '87 GN can still take any Corvette, other than a ZO6 and walk all over any regular 911 Porche. And it's all factory original. The Chrysler 300 SRT I had no complaints about other than around 150mph the fiberglass front air dam seemed to get some pressure wobble. But the engine was pure muscle.>>>"The so-called domestic manufacturers are solely responsible for their predicament.""Soley," how so? How do you get out of labor contracts and obligations you've made years and years ago when the world was a different place. Should the big three have abonden their union shops and moved down south & retooled & re-invested & re-trained workers in a right to work state.Honda, Toyota and the like have always made small econobox cars. When oil prices went through the roof they just happened to be positioned in the right place in the market. It was no great insight of their own. When gas was cheap and Ford and GM where turning out big SUVs nobody said why aren't you making small hybrids and smart cars they were buying SUVs hand over fist. Something interesting, here in Oklahoma the dealers can't keep enough big full-size V-8 trucks in stock. Now that gas has gone back down people are running right back to the big old trucks.GM's problem and it is a big one is in getting product to market and what has happened to the public perception of the brand. Even with it's prestigious brand such as Cadillac GM has real problem, not with the product, at least in my opinion, but in how people see it. The popular perception among the public is Cadillacs are only for Blacks and Jews and somehow that makes it not worthy of regular WASP car owner. I didn't say it I'm just repeating it and I drive a Caddy. In America you haven't arrived unless your driving a BMW or Mercedes. How do you change that perception. Beyond those problems they got to big and bought to much of their competition. No to mention have far to many products at offer. No matter how good or bad your product is how you overcome public perception is the billion dollar question for the marketers. It's akin to... well, Jack in the Box here in Oklahoma or Hardee's. One restaurant made people sick and in both cases the entire chain was shut down in the state. Not because all or even a handful of 'em where bad but because people associated either one with having made someone sick. Hardee's went out of business in the state and then reopened under the name Carl's Jr. It's the same people, the same buildings, the same sources, the same menu and product but because the name changed it's an overwhelming success here. My experience with foreign and domestic cars has been that over all things are about equal, and I've driven a shit load of cars. You pay bottom dollar your gonna get a bottom dollar product you pay a fair price your gonna get a fair product you pay an exorbitant price your gonna get something that's to expensive to ever drive but a few miles a year.Whatever anyones problems are with the auto makers it's ultimately going to be the consumer who loses and I don't think there's any arguing with that. As choice narrows the schism can only widen.

I went to the dealership yesterday and am this close (hold fingers apart just a little) to ordering a new Camero SS2. I almost did it but I really want to sit in one first, so I know it's comfortable. I was disappoint to learn that the Catback exhaust and the short throw shifter are eliminated as options for the foreseeable future because their parts supplier has a twelve month back log. This is GM's problem they should have had that secured for as long as this has been in production.

don't forget the the Grand National was a major departure from the accepted American muscle car design as it has a smaller, turbo charged engine.As for labour costs, the unions are a significant part of the problem but the big 3 did sign those contracts. In Canada at least, Honda and Toyota pay pretty much the same wage as the unionized manufacturers.Their poor self-branding is a major problem as you say. Even now they are still advertising big engine pickups as if those are the products people are looking for these days.

I think the legacy health costs would be the greatest liability, when you have to pay for health care for retired workers that are at the age that they require a lot of shit your up against a mountain of crap.

In the US a foreign manufacture doesn't have the liability and doesn't offer to pay for retirement health care or any kind of pension for that matter. So even if the wages are comparable the cost is not.

>>>"Even now they are still advertising big engine pickups as if those are the products people are looking for these days."

Here in the south and mid-south that's what's selling. They haven't been able to keep 'em on the lots.

Here's a link the the GM viability plan for one in million persons who'll ever read it.

It's amusing to see GM's plans for Australia. Essentially they are planning on making a Datsun 120Y, 40 years late. Not a hybrid, just a small four-cylinder conventional petrol car.

Originally Posted By: OldFolks>>>"unfortunately, with American cars, what you get is a big engine with mediocre performance."I would dispute that. My '87 GN can still take any Corvette, other than a ZO6 and walk all over any regular 911 Porche. And it's all factory original. The Chrysler 300 SRT I had no complaints about other than around 150mph the fiberglass front air dam seemed to get some pressure wobble. But the engine was pure muscle.Performance usually entails far more than just straight line speed, which I think is half of what he's trying to say. A Honda Jazz could probably corner better than your old muscle car.Also, in terms of displacement, it's not uncommon for worked Japanese cars to pushing 500hp+ per liter (or far, far more, if you look at some rotaries), which would be phenomenal in some American cars. I'm not knocking American cars, the ZR1 is a very impressive piece of automotive machinery which ever way you look at it, but the Japanese have mastered the art of getting the most bang for your buck. As far as engine cc goes at least, whether in stock trim or worked.

I LOVE Toyota! It's five years old and all I have had to do to it is oil changes and tires! Too small to get busy in the backseat though.

Originally Posted By: DxLISHxISx_43

Too small to get busy in the backseat though. :grin:

you'd be surprised what can be accoplished with the right motivation. and just think how close we'd be crammed together... nowhere to go but deeper :wink: