Fair or unfair? The Schiavo case

---

The scans, I beleive them, but as far as it goes, the autopsy will say inconclusive because it would be the only way out of "who was right". Did I just make ANY sense?I think that the violence comes from living in their little bubble, and they don't know how else to handle it, that they cannot PROVE all of their side. No matter what side of the fence you stand on, there is always another point of veiw, or some exceptions to the "rule". The violent ones cannot except that they don't have power over everything, and the violence gives them power. I am dead set against abortions...except...when it is rape, incest, or the baby will fail to thrive(dead baby is a dead baby, and I think it would be less traumatic to end it early). It is simply a case of not being open minded in my oppinion.

hmm .. anybody, LOCK THIS THREAD !

Why?

She`s dead, Game Over , time to move on

No, the game's not over. Stick your head in the sand if you like, or just pay no attention to this thread, but there will be more Schiavo-like cases. A lot depends on which way the political winds are blowing.Just because Terri Schiavo is dead doesn't mean that the underlying issues are.Are you familiar with the saying that goes something like, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."?If you live outside of the U.S., it's just a philosophical exercise. If you live inside the U.S., the implications are a but more serious.

Well said!

I just love how this woman's death is an occassion to start up the political and religious hatred again. Can we at least get beyond THAT?Nonetheless, I agree with Steve that this is an important discussion to have. And the discussion, as well as the rulings that come from the discussion, shouldn't happen in heat of crisis. That's like deciding how far you're gonna go with your girlfriend when you're in the back seat of the car with the windows fogged up and your pants unzipped!

Yes. Bad legislation usually results when the representatives are working in the midst of a crisis.

I'm glad her ordeal is over. I'm sure the political dancing on her grave will continue until the CNN generation is destracted by the next "shiny thing"As sad as this is, I'm afrad it pales against Zahra Kazemi. But that story might be little more than a foot not in the US media.

SteveA you're right. The game isn't over. As we speak there are those who would have our right to choose life or death when in the position of having a feeding tube taken from us. My family and friends know my wishes: No damn feeding tube - EVER. Just take me out back and shoot me first.It's a damn crying shame that the death and the state of this woman is something that legislators and politicians felt compelled to turn into something about themselves when it was never about them to begin with. It was about her and her wishes. I don't know all the details surrounding this case and I don't know much about Michael Schiavo but I'm more than a little suspicious about his motives. If he didn't have ulterior motives I wish him luck in moving on because God knows it won't be easy for him. If he did have an ulterior motive(s) shame on him. I guess you could say he would be right but for the wrong reason.I feel for her parents. My heart goes out to them. Your children are NEVER supposed to go first. I can only imagine what kind of heartache they are suffering with right now. I can understand their hesitation to let her go but I don't think letting her lay there in that bed forever would help any. Eventually you have to deal with things like decubitis ulcers. That's something for you to think about. If you think a pressure sore is nothing, I beg to differ and have pictures if the moderators feel it is okay for me to post links to them. You can even google them yourself. They're not pretty. Then ask yourself would you rather starve to death or gush blood from your insides because your butt fell off. (Nope I'm not joking. My cousin is also a nurse and he just recently had a patient from a nursing home come to the VA hospital with a stage four so bad his ass literally fell off....even worse the nursing home he was at knew about it because they were packing it with blue pads...DlvryRN knows what I'm talking about if she's following this post...this is BAD folks). Anyhow, it's just something to think about.

In reply to: It was about her and her wishes. My opinion is that it was about the husband and his wishes.And I stress 'my opinion'.

Damien if you'll go back and read my post I stated very clearly how I would feel if Michael Schiavo did indeed have ulterior motives for removing his wife's feeding tube. I said it before I'll say it again, he would be right for the wrong reasons.And you know, according to these doctors and such she had brain stem function only. The brain stem controls the simplest of motor functions and that includes your breathing. She can smile she can follow your hand with her eyes but she does not know she's actually doing it. If the autopsy comes back and proves me wrong I'll gladly eat my words but until then I'm sticking with SteveA on this one.And how long has she been on the tube? Over 10 years. That's a long time for someoen to be hooked up to anything. I would've had it removed a long time ago. I understand that this woman's parents are distraught and in mourning for their daughter but the longer they delayed the inevitable the harder it was going to be to let go. They were wrong for keeping her hooked up to that machine for so long, but for the right reason. They love their daughter. They wanted what was best for her. But what they should've been asking themselves is, "Is this how my daughter would want us to remember her? Would she want us to let her live like this?" Because that's no way for anyone to live. It's not about the QUANTITY of years of life you have had but the QUALITY of the years you have had. Just because you live to be 120 years old doesn't mean you've led a happy and fullfilling life. Can you actually say that the last 10 years of Terri Schiavo's life have been of a good quality? If you say yes let me remind you that she is in constant danger of friction and sheering that causes bed sores. She has a tube that's feeding her because she can't feed herself. She probably has a urinary catheter because she can't eliminate waste on her own. And I'm not sure but they either had to clean her sheets every few hours from bowel movements or she had to have a colostomy bag. She can't bathe herself. She can't tell you what she wants or tell you how she feels. Tell me now...is that a way that you would want to live?

But it's not about us, is it? It's about Terri and who got to make the decisions for her. Or actually, who should have made the decision for her: the husband who didn't remember her vague reference to 'not wanting to live like that' until he received is million dollar settlement and after he was already seeing and having children by someone else; or the judge who based his decision on husband's testimony that 'she wouldn't want to live like that', not on any kinds of actual medical testing because said husband wouldn't allow them and who everyone seems to forget is also the government making decisions for the family; or her parents, who offered to take care of her, including financially, but weren't allowed to, and who were probably the only ones who really had Terri's best interest at heart.

And yeah, that's an impressive list you compiled of unfortunate circumstances wrapped up in a larger unfortunate circumstance. But is that the criteria by which we really want to decide whether we let someone live or we kill them?

I think its perfectly fair.

Why do you keep bringing up bed sores? Is that really the worst thing Terry could face? Just so you know, if you have good nurses you will never get a bed sore. Hospitals rotate thier patients every 2-4 hours, left-side, right-side, back...left, right, back and so on. This way the patient is never on one side for too long. Believe me, there are many bed bound patients who never get a bed sore because thier nurse is on top of things. It does happen and more so in nursing homes because there is not enough staff like there is in a hospital.I have to say, this "quality" of life excuse is really getting to me. I do not feel that it is a fair reason to let someone die. As I said before, I see wheelchair bound children, hands and feet twisted up, severely mentally retarded, cannot talk. And thier parents take care of them day in and day out. They will never walk, bathe themselves, talk, or feed themselves. Really the only difference between them and Terry is, Terry has a doctor to say she is brain dead. Could you look at those children and tell them they shouldn't live because they will never live a quality/meaningful life?I'm not saying I think Terry should have lived or died. I hope I never am put in that situation. The only reason they should have removed Terry's feeding tube is if that was Terry's wish. If your married or in a commited relationship, you KNOW what your partners wishes are...which is why the feeding tube never should have been put in Terry in the first place. Kind of makes me wonder what her husbands intentions were.

Yeah, I was busy typing and didn't get to read damiens post but...I agree with him.

In reply to:My opinion is that it was about the husband and his wishes.You said it again, yet I assume you haven't yet read all of the court transcripts, have you? Somehow you've become omniscient with respect to Michael Schiavo's state of mind. Anyway, a whole slew of judges who have carefully examined all the evidence disagree with you. And haven't other people besides her husband testified that Terri made comments on the issue?Are you getting your news from the Fox News Channel?______I agree that difficulty in rendering care should not play a part in the decision on whether to pull the plug. But it is also true that bedridden people develop all kinds of problems, from muscle atrophy to pneumonia to bedsores. People who aren't familiar with patient care have no idea how devastating bedsores can be. I'm familiar with the working of hospitals in the Miami and Boston areas (and to some extent, nursing homes in the Miami area), and I can tell you that they're pretty much all understaffed. I'd fall off my chair if I heard of anyone who was actually turned every two to four hours, unless they've already developed serious bedsores. Even then I wouldn't be too sure. The only hope would be for a person to have a personal aid or a family member to do it.That's something to think about if someone is kept alive for the benefit of the family rather than for the benefit of the patient.

They only judge that examined any evidence (which consist of MIchael Schiavo's word, and the idea that Terri was in a persistent vegitative state - despite that fact that neither an MRI or a PET scan were allowed) was Pinellas County Judge George Greer.The only thing your slew of judges did was decide not to overrule his "finding of facts" as an abuse of discretion.I get my news from a wide variety of sources. And, yes, I am omniscient. You seem to have a problem with that.

neither an MRI or a PET scanSo you found the C/T scan inconclusive?> which consist of MIchael Schiavo's wordYou keep saying this, again and again and again, and I keep telling you that I've read things to the contrary, that other people have testified that Terri made the same kind of remarks to them that they made to her husband.> And, yes, I am omniscient. You seem to have a problem with that.No, I think that's pretty cool. I wish I was. But I'll wager that the autopsy results corroborate the C/T study.

Dear God Almighty please make him at least READ my posts. I have said it twice now and this will make the THIRD time. Honestly, I am becoming frustrated with having to repeat myself. Let me put it in caps for you and separate it:IF MICHAEL SCHIAVO HAD AN UNDERLYING MOTIVE FOR REMOVING THE FEEDING TUBE - SHAME ON HIM. HOWEVER, HE WOULD BE RIGHT BUT FOR THE WRONG REASON.Are you understanding where I'm coming from now? Removing the tube WAS in my opinion the best thing to do. She was (from my understanding) not showing signs of ever making a recovery. HOWEVER, having it removed just because you're after money or personal gain is wrong. Do you get what I'm driving at? Maybe you don't. Maybe you have to experience it for yourself so you can know first hand what it's like to have to make a decision like that. You and D (however it's spelled....I'm sorry I just didn't feel like flipping the back button to figure it out) think you can figure out what exactly I'm all about by reading some thoughts I put down on a page? I'm here to tell you, making the decision to pull a life support measure is harder than you think it is. I was fortunate enough to not have to make the decision. My mother and my aunt did. Do you even know how hard it is to say, "no more."? I thought it was a crime for my grandpa to lay in a bed and waste away for three months before my family's eyes. I can't even begin to imagine 10+ years watching someone I love just lay there like that.She's been in and out of institutions, nursing homes, hospitals for over 10 years. She's had the feeding tub for seven years. Like it or not that is a life support measure.And I'd like to know EXACTLY what you mean by "an impressive list that you compiled...". If you're suggesting that I looked it up on a whim, you're dead wrong buster. By all means, I AM A NURSE. The only thing I haven't done yet is grab a diploma and make a run for the board of nursing to take my NCLEX. I can do EVERYTHING on my own and I'm damn good at what I do. So this "impressive list" that you speak of is something I know about and have seen with my own eyes, thank you very much. Oh and this is for the comment about how people can live for such long periods of time without ever having a bed sore. Christopher Reeves had the best care available that money could afford someone. How do you think he died? Let me tell you. Heart failure that was due to septicemia (also known as sepsis) that was caused by - PRESSURE SORES.Every 2-4 hours huh...Let me tell you if you turned your patient ONLY every four hours in 8 hour period you'd be four hours behind. You're supposed to turn them every 2 hours. It should happen that way. And I do turn my patients. But in most nurses reality with hospitals being so understaffed thanks to the nursing shortage we're lucky to stay on top of anything. Nope it's not an excuse to not turn them at all. But in most hospitals you have a 15-30 minute window to get caught up and if you don't, it goes as an undone and uncharted assignment. You get questioned for it but most people do know when you ARE doing your job. Again, before you come out of your corner swinging in my direction please at least ready my post before you start putting words in my mouth. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. And I've already said if the autopsy comes back different than what I think it will, I'll gladly eat my own words. But until then, whatever Michael Schiavo's reasons were (wrong or right) for pulling the tube he was right to do so. Don't you think it's possible that in over ten years it's possible for someone to rack up millions of dollars in medical and hospital bills? I highly doubt Schiavo is going to be seeing any of this money that you speak of. And I've already said that her parents are wrong but for the right reasons. I know they love their daughter. And I have no doubt in my mind that they would care for her. The fact of the matter is did the parents ever at any point in time ask themselves if Terri would really want to be kept alive by a feeding tube? And one more thing: I don't know how it is where anyone else comes from but where I'm from when you marry someone - guess what? You acquire a few more things other than a larger bank account (well...sometimes you acquire a larger bank account). You aslo gain medical power of attorney. If you or your spouse become incapacitated and need life support measure the other party can decide whether or not to keep you on life supporting measures. That's cold and calloused but that's just a fact of the matter. It's a like it or not stipulation unless you have a written will stating otherwise.