Fetal stem cell reasearch veto

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"I think that he believes that if we allow scientists to clone zygotes, then that would just open the door to the development and legalisation of full human cloning."Give the man a cigar.Bottom line: The whole topic gets abused constantly by people who live in fear of "fundamentalists" (whatever definition you use), Christianity and God. They often don't even think beyond that point, and don't see the danger inherent to this proposal because they are too busy pointing fingers in fear. Fear is what spawned the Salem witch trials...not fundamentalism.

What about the fundamentalists and Christians and other folk who go against these possible life-saving experiments from 'fear' of God. We shall suffer the 'fear' of God's wrath (and we all know of his wrath) should we allow these evil acts to continue.Do the scientists trying to develop new cures and treatments from stem-cell research 'fear' anything? Fear does not play into this, why you continue to bring it up I don't know.This reminds me of Donnie Darko when the teacher tries to break down the "spectrum of emotions" to two categories, 'Fear' and 'Love'. It doesn't make any sense to bring them into topic. (Hey look at that, I can take things from movies too!)

I don't even know what you're talking about (Donnie Dorko), but as far as you being unable to see fear in most of OldFolks posts in this thread (at least on this page), then I'd be wasting my time trying to explain it to you. You can either see it or you can't.

if we all read back, it seems that you are the one that is lumping fundamentalism in with christianity and religion in general. It's the rest of us that see a clear deliniation. I, for one, have not reviled religion in any of my arguments, niether have Steve, Scotty or Bob.So, if you and Bush think it's god's will that some people should not be able to make babies and others should suffer and die from curable disease then I presume that you don't practise safe sex, wear a seat belt or look both ways when crossing the street. After all, "not my will, but thine, be done". In reply to: You can either see it or you can't ahhh, thike the chip that looks like Jesus.

Nah...OldFolks put it all together on the first post of page 3. Read it again if you didn't get it the first time.

I re-read it.I am litterateI see critacism of fundamentalism founded in his real life experiences but no fear or defamation of religion in general.Possibly, you'd like to quote certain phrases and let us know what you read into them.

Read it again.--> I give an answer to Chances question by relating personal experiences. --> I explain my understanding, as has been explained to me, of why those sighted hold the opinions they do.--> I close by offering my opinion of what any fundamentalist system does to society.How do you extrapolate that to be any kind of condemnation of faith or Christianity in general?Finally if there was any questions as to the intent, which apparently you had, was in not clarified in my next post? Then again ad noisome in subsequent posts?

First off, you brought up cloning, noone else, second you asked if anyone saw I robot, if your going to use movies for prrof, atleast use valid ones that match the topic, in this case use Island, its entire plot is that the clones are used for harvesting parts for the 'real' people.No one was talking cloning, this thread never gave a shit about cloning, so why bring it up? its a whole other topic.Scotty, (Old Folks) said he has a fear of the people who try to run the world for the rest of us, pushing thier ideas and morals on everyone around him, He went on to say that ffear is part of what drives those people to do what they do, he never said anything else about fear so why the hell do you keep insisting hes talking about fear and when will ya drop that subject and get back to ffthe fetal stem cells rather thenf movies and clones ?We have all those stem cells, frozem, going to be stuffed in the garbage and the fact that the research done on them can give my son a better life, a longer life, a less painfull life, thats enough reason for me to say pull out teh blenders and test tubes, add to that that millions of other kids have diabeties, that the possibility of cuting shit doesnt end with jsue diabeties, cancer, parkinsons, so fucking many more that affect people world wide and number in the millions and someone says that god says its not ok, that all those people should be made to suffer and that my son should die in 20 years rather then live to full life?Then i say fuck those people, and fuck god. Im happy as shit that sweden leads the world in this type of research, Im glad that as they learn more less suffering will occur, Im also ashamed to be an american where fundamentalist assholes who worry more about an afterlife and whos life they can control untill they get to that afterlife, and how many people they can 'save' rule fwhat was once the greatest country on earth. We now have a fucking moron for our leader. What worries e more is that he has ANY approval rating above a zero, that means that the people of this country are ven stupider then Bush as somone still believes in his ability to govern and do what sbest and whats right.Fucking morons.

"Scotty, (Old Folks) said he has a fear of the people who try to run the world for the rest of us, pushing thier ideas and morals on everyone around him..."Which is exactly what he (and a few others) have done in this thread...push their ideas on others without any evidence other than a few isolated incidents to back them up. Evidence which, by the way, is quite likely to result in the fear that I speak of (with most people). Anybody tries to blame any one person for it (be it Bush or anybody else) is out to lunch and looking for a scapegoat. It's the whole system that's responsible for what's going on.I bring up the movie "I, Robot" because it depicts what can happen in society when there is a slave race. I bring up cloning because more than likely they would become a way of providing "body parts" that the "OK" to stem-cell research would pave the way for. I won't go into playing "connect-the-dots" anymore as it gets old fast. Suffice it to say I think we need to look at the big picture in a more responsible way and not trade away our future for something that has yielding no tangible results for other countries in solving anything as of yet. If other countries want to flush their humanity down the toilet that's their business...maybe I'd be more likely to risk it if this stem-cell research had any tangible results (and not just a lot of empty promises from doctors who want the tax-payers money).

In reply to: and not just a lot of empty promises from doctors who want the tax-payers money yep, that's all they want. Just like the guys working on cancer, AIDS and even those sneaky bastards that accidently cured polio and small pox.Keep that head in the sand, I'm sure it's quite comforting.

Oh...we got the cure for AIDS and cancer? That's news to me. You got a link?

the guys working on cancer, AIDS Where did it say "cure"?

what an increadible case of "point missing"you argue that stem cell research has yet to yeald a tangible result (in your opinion) so I compared it to cancer and AIDS research.Let's just quite everything that hasn't come to fruition.

And how long has it been since we have had "no results"? And why are folks arguing about all the lives saved when we have had no results??? I'll save my opinions about cancer for another thread...but I'll just say I don't see any results from all the money pumped into cancer and AIDS at all...nor any possible results in sight. You should have stuck with polio, etc...Remember...drug companies don't want cures...they want you on a regime of drugs they can sell you for the next 50 years. Stem-cell research follows in the same vein. How much you think they'll charge for drugs made from stem-cells (if they can conjure up anything)? You think the doctors get a little kickback, maybe? You think they don't for what they throw at us today?

aaahahaha... now it's back to that very old conspiracy theory!"we've had a cure for (cancer, aids, common cold etc etc) for years. It's just kept quiet because the research grants are too lucrative"did you know that they invented a bettery that never dies but the battery companies keep the info repressed?

"...And why are folks arguing about all the lives saved when we have had no results???...I'll just say I don't see any results from all the money pumped into cancer and AIDS at all...nor any possible results in sight."So are you saying that we should just give up?>>>" How much you think they'll charge for drugs made from stem-cells (if they can conjure up anything)? You think the doctors get a little kickback, maybe? You think they don't for what they throw at us today?"So your saying all doctors and researchers, the country over, are uncaring, unethical & greed driven - merely in it for money. Or further, that any corruption that exists or would exist out weights the benefit of a treatment or cure.

then I'd be wasting my time trying to explain it to you. You can either see it or you can't.And that is the central theme of your argument. You refuse to answer the question, "Why do you draw the 'slippery slope' line where you do?" You could just as easily say that biomedical research in general might lead to abuse, so perhaps we should stop doing that altogether.Then you imply that AIDS and cancer research have borne no fruit:In reply to:And how long has it been since we have had "no results"? And why are folks arguing about all the lives saved when we have had no results??? ...but I'll just say I don't see any results from all the money pumped into cancer and AIDS at all...nor any possible results in sight.Congratulations. You are completely ignorant of all that is going on in biomedical research. You should be thoroughly embarrassed about arguing about something about which you so thoroughly lack knowledge.You are unaware of the antiretroviral drugs that have been developed and have saved many lives. They're worthless because they don't actually cure the disease? Tell that to the millions who owe their lives to those drugs. I have a cousin who died from AIDS, a short time before the drugs were available. If other people's experiences mean anything, he would likely still be alive today had he come down with the illness a few years later.There are therapies available for cancer now that didn't exist 20 years ago that also save lives, and that often result in cure, if you define cure as being cancer-free for more than 5 years. I have a friend whose daughter who was diagnosed with a type of leukemia when she was 3. She had chemotherapy, for a year or two. Now she is about to start high school, and she remains cancer-free.Research (pretty much all of it funded by the federal government) has resulted in the savings of millions of lives. Is life precious, or does that only apply to clumps of a few cells? Is it God's will when an already-born person gets cancer or AIDS (which is not always sexually-transmitted)? How do you value life?That's the choice a society has to make. How much is it worth to spend to keep someone alive and productive? $10,000 a year? $100,000 a year? Nothing?In reply to:Remember...drug companies don't want cures...they want you on a regime of drugs they can sell you for the next 50 years.Are you saying you would prefer a socialist system?In reply to:You think the doctors get a little kickback, maybe? You think they don't for what they throw at us today?Would you care to elaborate on this?The sad thing is that many citizens and politicaians in the U.S. are as ignorant as you are. I'm not saying that your position is indefensible, but your attempt to defend it is pathetic.

What he's saying is that he is hostile to science.Sceintific research is a crap shoot; you never know what you're going to get. Sometimes it succeeds, sometimes if fails, sometimes it leads to something surprising. But as long as the experiments are conducted well, something is always learned.There are people, though, who dismiss science as wasteful and potentially immoral claptrap.The science-hostile people still drink clean water, ride elevators, fly in jets, get their infected appendix taken out, etc., without thinking about the incosistencies in their beliefs. The hypocrisy of such people becomes manifest when they're rolled into the emergency room and hooked up to all that expensive equipment.

you missed out the #1 life prolonging scientific breakthrough in the history of man kind... enclosed sewers.really, no shit.

Yes, and vaccines were pretty cool too. Pasteur was a scientist, n'est-ce pas?