My gfs parents I think are furious at her! I don't know what this tangent has to do with same-sex marriage. Are you lesbian?I suggest you discuss all of your views regarding Judaism with them. They probably don't know what the real deal is, and you could lead them to the knowledge they need. It would be a shame if you just left them in the dark.
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Gay Marrage
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Nah. they actually basically said what Thor said!! Her older sister married a non-jewish guy, and he was really really mad! and her brother is gay, but hasn't told them!
They are very opposed to gay marriage, I dont see much churches that have signs say "Gays are evil". But the Synagague next to Hespelers Market does.
This is exactly what he told me once when I was trying to get my gfs older to come out to them before!
In reply to:
If they're practicing homosexuals then they're not Jewish...period.
And when I was hanging out at her house 2 days ago. He was talking to some guy on the telephone, and then told my gf this.
In reply to:
They're only Jewish by name or heredity. No Jewish synogogue or temple will stand by and sanction active homosexuality. Not my call, but I happen to agree with it.
Not word by word, but same meaning. The guy is a rabbi, he always reads the freaking Bible and studies law! Always talks about the Holocaust and how European should belong to Jews!
He owns 2 Synagagues, 1 in Preston other in Galt.
He still hates me for not being jewish! He tried to convert me i think!
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He owns two synagogues? Well how about that.> The guy is a rabbi, he always reads the freaking Bible and studies law! Always talks about the Holocaust and how European should belong to Jews!> He still hates me for not being jewish! He tried to convert me i think!He sounds pretty uppity.Fate has brought you together. You must explain to him your views on Europe, Jewry, and European Jewry. If you don't tell him, how will he learn?
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That's the only reasonable option. His brother owns the other synagogues. his brother is even more anti-gay. Alot of jews and muslims here are!
My Gf told me her dad now started writing some book. dont know what about yet. I will have to talk to them!
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In reply to:Sure they should be allowed to "marry"...and THEIR beliefs determine the rules. NOT the government. But it will obviously NOT be a Christian marriage. It will be whatever they call their kind of union.I don't see this as essentially different from my perspective, thor. People aren't saying that churches should be forced to carry out gay marriages. Churches should be allowed to determine their own view. But the state governs for all people, not just conservative Christians. If the state allows special tax and legal next-of-kin arrangements for Christian weddings, it must allow them for all citizens - and you accept that their own beliefs should determine the rules. Therefore, if a couple's beliefs allow for same-sex marriages, what right does the state have to forbid it?Perhaps it's interesting to note that last I heard (it must be 20 years ago) in Indonesia only religious weddings are permitted by law. But if people do not belong to any of the recognised religions, they can write down their own beliefs and philosophy of life, and that is classified as a new religion and added to the list.
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In reply to: in reply to Eddie marring Steph My eddieness better not be cheating on me, I thought he was my baby daddy! pout 3some!?
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I don't see this as essentially different from my perspective, thor. People aren't saying that churches should be forced to carry out gay marriages. Churches should be allowed to determine their own view. But the state governs for all people, not just conservative Christians. If the state allows special tax and legal next-of-kin arrangements for Christian weddings, it must allow them for all citizens - and you accept that their own beliefs should determine the rules. Therefore, if a couple's beliefs allow for same-sex marriages, what right does the state have to forbid it?Very well said!And Thor:>If they're practicing homosexuals then they're not Jewish...period. Jews believe only in the OT, and God is quite clear there what he thinks of the act. They're only Jewish by name or heredity. No Jewish synogogue or temple will stand by and sanction active homosexuality. Not my call, but I happen to agree with it.Sorry, a Church/synagogue cannot stripe someone of his or her beliefs. They don’t have to accept them in their house of worship, but they cannot stripe them of their belief. But just so you know, both these guys go and worship in a synagogue on a regular bases without any issues from the temple, and yes most people know they are gay. So don’t be making statements that no Jewish synagogue will accept them. That being said I am sure they would not sanction a marriage, but they allow them to worship.And why shouldn’t gay people be allowed to worship their god? Lets use your idea that homosexuality is a sin. Have you never sinned? Are you perfect in the eyes of god? Perhaps you should not be allowed to worship either since you are not a perfect Christian. Regardless, no sin is greater than any other sin; so quit trying to make yourself seem so much better than gay people… just makes you look petty.
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"But the state governs for all people, not just conservative Christians. If the state allows special tax and legal next-of-kin arrangements for Christian weddings, it must allow them for all citizens - and you accept that their own beliefs should determine the rules. Therefore, if a couple's beliefs allow for same-sex marriages, what right does the state have to forbid it?"The state has no right to forbid what a couple believes in...but it also cannot force another group of people to change their beliefs in order to accomodate the couple. This country was started by Christians, and the marriage that this country recognizes as such is Christian. You're not going to get a Hindu cerimoney when you go to the Justice of the Peace...it'll be a Christian one. The whole tax issue was created in recognition of the fact that it takes money to start a family and raise kids. Ain't gonna happen with a gay couple. But if money is the issue, I say let them have it...but only through a civil union of their own. If they want to start their own religion and get married in it, that's fine. The question remains as to why they haven't done so already...unless, of course, the point is to change the definition of marriage as it already exists in another existing religion.
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You sound like a broken record that won't stop playing.>when you go to the Justice of the Peace...it'll be a Christian oneNot true. When it's done in the courthouses it has nothing to do with religion. You need to get it through your skull the USA has no selected religion. The sooner you understand this the sooner you might understand where we are all coming from.>The whole tax issue was created in recognition of the fact that it takes money to start a family and raise kids. Ain't gonna happen with a gay couple.Not true at all. Gay people are allowed to adopt children in 9 states. And there are gay couples that have children of their own whether it's through a surrogate mother or a sperm donor.>If they want to start their own religion and get married in it, that's fine. The question remains as to why they haven't done so already...unless, of course, the point is to change the definition of marriage as it already exists in another existing religion.Because in the USA it doesn’t work like it does in Indonesia. We can’t just create our own religion and than the government has to adapt. If it was that easy, trust me it would have been done. And if all you are holding on to is that you think the definition of marriage is between a man and a woman, you have very little grasp on the situation. Marriage regardless has changed through the decades. Hell scroll up to a post I made where it lists other laws that should be in effect if we are going to try and define marriage as between a man and a woman. Should we institute those laws as well?>but it also cannot force another group of people to change their beliefs in order to accomodate the couple.And what about people who are not Christians? You are forcing them to accept your beliefs. What a double standard! Basically saying “It’s okay for us to push our beliefs on you, but don’t try and push yours on me.” And you want to talk about selfish? Please!
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You keep twisting my words, so I'm not going to bother anymore. But I'll part with this little shot.
">The whole tax issue was created in recognition of the fact that it takes money to start a family and raise kids. Ain't gonna happen with a gay couple.
Not true at all. Gay people are allowed to adopt children in 9 states. And there are gay couples that have children of their own whether it's through a surrogate mother or a sperm donor."
What you claim to be not true at all (your words) seems to be true for 41 out of 50 states...the majority. You have a decidedly slanted view on reality. And if a gay couple has kids through a surrogate mother or sperm doner...well...it's not really "their" kid, is it. Seems more like a loophole in nature's laws that somebody has decided to exploit.
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In reply to: so you think gay marriage is okay,but a gay couple shouldn't get all the same benefits?Ohhhh Eddie... Nope. I want all married couples to have exactly the same benefits. None, except the lagal aid in divorces. While I want increased benefits for couples with children, something gay people are considerably less likely to enjoy.
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And if a gay couple has kids through a surrogate mother or sperm doner...well...it's not really "their" kid, is it. Seems more like a loophole in nature's laws that somebody has decided to exploit.Umm huh??? It has their genes so yes it is THEIR kid. What the hell are you talking about? It’s not a loophole either. Just because someone is gay doesn’t mean they don’t desire to have children and a family. We are not some weird creation that doesn’t have feelings or desires. As for the adoption thing give it another couple years and more states will be allowing same sex adoptions. Many states have it already in action. Get used to it. Regardless if it’s in 9 our of 50 or 50 out of 50 there are homosexual couples with children through adoption so they should get equal rights under the law like any other family does.
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In reply to: To that and what you said in your last post: very well put. Cheers. Sadly going by the repetitive arguements that follow I dont think many read it. Perhaps summing up my entire thoughts on the matter, in one long eassay-like post instead of a series of jumbled posts getting at individual aspects, was a mistake haha. Oh well, its all there if anyone wants it lol.
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From a kids point of view: I dont think gays should adopt. Usually there are roles in the house of the man and woman, some times the woman stays home or goes to work. somtimes the man stays home or goes to work. These issues I speak from my younger friend, where he still doesn't know how a full functioning relationship works, yet he has dated quite a few guys in the neighbourhood. My psycharatrist even noticed these things, and he thought I was homosexual! no offence to you, Eddie! From the adult point of view: If gay people can give a better life than a man/woman relationship! Go fucking ahead! Why would kids remain in an abusive house? Lets say that gay people abused them, they get taken away and put with some "normal" family. If the gay people can provide better shelter, education and health for the child, by all means! Let gay people adopt!!Whats it called where they take the mans sperm and artificially inseminat the woman? Then she gives birth and gives it to them? Oh and My neighbours are lesbian, and 1 of them just got pregnant this way The man is close to them His sperm was very "health" That was just my little rant
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I'm sceptical about the benefits of gay adoption, and I doubt Eddie or anyone else could say much to remove my sceptism. However I am not psycologist and I will wait til I've seen some hard evidence before I tell gays they cant raise kids. And of course such evidence will never come to be until gay adoption is given the go ahead, which in my country it now is. Sometimes you just have to wait a generation or so to know for sure, though when ya get it wrong it can be bad for the generation in question.
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Your little rant is more than confusing. One moment you are against gays raising children and than the next second you are for it. But I’ll do my best to address your post.>I dont think gays should adopt. Usually there are roles in the house of the man and woman, some times the woman stays home or goes to work. somtimes the man stays home or goes to work.And?? Most families these days have both parents working. Day cares are very much in use. But we’ll use your theory that there are roles. 2 men or two women can play both roles. I’ll even use myself as an example. Though I am not overly feminine I have no issues doing my daughters hair or dressing her in girly clothing and when the time comes explaining to her about her period etc. If I have a boy I can rough house, go outside and throw the ball around etc. Being gay I can play both roles quite easily lol . And even than I am very close to females role models in my family like my mother and my oldest sister. So a girlw ould not be absent a female role model.>My psycharatrist even noticed these things, and he thought I was homosexual! no offence to you, Eddie!None taken because I don’t get the relevance of this to this thread lol>Whats it called where they take the mans sperm and artificially inseminat the woman? Then she gives birth and gives it to them?It’s called surrogate mother. The act of placing the sperm into the female is artificial insemination.
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I gave a view from a kids point of view. and my point of view You'll make a great father/mother, Eddie! Lol!
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>You'll make a great father/mother, Eddie! Lol!
Aww well thank you LoL :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
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If you saw the reality of foster care in the U.S., you just might end up thinking that gay adoption is not such a bad idea. There is no evidence that I'm aware of that the sexual orientation of homosexual parents causes any harm to their children. There is ample evidence that foster care often causes big problems. Also, homosexual couple are often willing to adopt "disposable" children who won't otherwise have a chance of being adopted.My benchmark is a gay couple who were my neighbors in Boston. They had a little daughter. They were as good parents as any I've met.
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In reply to: And if a gay couple has kids through a surrogate mother or sperm doner...well...it's not really "their" kid, is it. It is theirs if they raise it, I mean look at the way chance refers to one of his kids biological father, as "sperm donor". There is a difference between a parent and a donor. So if a gay or lesbian couple either does the sperm donor thing or surrogate mother or adopts and they raise it its their kid. 4 of my nieces were adopted, my brother and sister in law didnt contribute to their DNA but they are still their kids and my nieces goddamnit and if anyone tries to tell me otherwise they can go to hell. Their parents werent all that good of parents, the father left damn early and the mother just wasnt competent enough, but they still love their mother i dont hear much talk of the father. So that whole " they didnt actually create the child so it isnt their kid", is a truckload of bullshit. I'll kill,maim,injure or die for my nieces so if anyone wants to tell me im not their uncle, theyre welcome to fucking challenge me........