In reply to:And if a gay couple has kids through a surrogate mother or sperm doner...well...it's not really "their" kid, is it. Seems more like a loophole in nature's laws that somebody has decided to exploit. I'm sorry but that is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Whether a person is gay or not, it does NOT take DNA to make a person a parent.
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Gay Marrage
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Maybe all parentless kids should just stay in an orphanage until they're 18?
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Since you obviously harbour the foolish notion that an absence of biological and genealogical links excludes somebody from being a parent, I can only conclude that you are a fool..
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he probably means it's not their kid through blood but that's beside the point and pretty dumb. my friend was adopted by a gay couple and she considers herself their daughter from the moment she was born. actually no wait because the woman is just the host.. I take it back.
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"I'm sorry but that is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Whether a person is gay or not, it does NOT take DNA to make a person a parent."
You missed the point completely...which is no surprise considering how anxious you were to jump to some kind of conclusion that would justify your going off. Just to set the record straight, I didn't even remotely suggest anything anywhere near what you indicated I did. Nice going...but since we're on the subject, why don't you expound, with all your personal experience, on just exactly what it takes to make a successful parent, K?
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What Leelee said was exactly right, it doesn’t take DNA to make someone a parent. It takes love, understanding, shelter, support and most important unconditional love. As you notice I said love twice because IMO love is an all-important factor in being a good parent.So YOU need to understand what makes a parent a parent. Just because a guy knocks up a girl it doesn’t make him a parent. What would make him a parent is loving and supporting that child. Otherwise he was nothing more than a sperm donor. So in turn it doesn’t take DNA to make someone a parent.And if you think people are taking your words out of context than perhaps you need to make yourself more clear instead of blaming everyone else.
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It does take DNA to make a biological parent
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Biologically... Yes... But doesn’t truly make someone a mother/father. It takes much more than a sperm or an egg to make someone a mother/father.
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true that...love is the most important factor for parenting imo.
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I think Thor was talking about Biologically making them parents.If you adopt, you're still a father/mother. As long as you give the child the same love you would give your own child, then that is parenting
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Why doesnt everybody just do whatever the hell they want? People can say what they want.. but it won't stop people from doing it.. for example.. If i thought homosexuality was wrong and I said that 2 men shouldnt be a couple.. and that it is wrong and disgusting and they have no reason to be together.. doesnt mean they are gonna stop being together.. we can fight it all we want.. but it's still gonna happen..All I gotta say is..all the power to EVERYBODY!
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"What Leelee said was exactly right, it doesn’t take DNA to make someone a parent."Oh...OK...pardon me. I didn't realize that that was what I meant. :rolleyes:That fact is, before science provided a loop-hole in the natural scheme of things, it DID require a male and female to make children. As for being parents, you need structure and discipline as much as love...without it, kids take a lot longer to grasp what they need to survive in the world...especially with all the shifting morals these days. Included with this is some idea of natural roles...something gay parents can't provide. I know a kid with a gay dad who left his wife for a guy. The kid is an angry wreck because his dad is gay. You can't tell me there aren't negative reprecutions for having two men or two women (as opposed to one of each) raise kids. As was already pointed out, some people don't bother trying to do the research before pushing an agenda...because what they want to justify is more important to them than the lives of the kids they purport to have so much love and concern for. It's like intersections...they always have to have somebody get killed (a generation get all messed up) before they put in a traffic signal. Thing is it'll take several generations to undo the mess that's created. That's several generations of needless suffering. I think that until we have a much more complete understanding of the human psyche, gays have no business raising kids. To think that one of us can look at a family and see everything that is ocurring and make a value judgement as to the apporopriatness of the parents over what nature suggests is extreme arrogance.
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Sorry but you are the arrogant one. You have a very simple minded way of thinking about this subject.>That fact is, before science provided a loop-hole in the natural scheme of things, it DID require a male and female to make children.Even with today’s science it still requires a man and a woman to create a child, but now we just have ways like artificial insemination and surrogate mothers to help those who either cannot have children because one of a parent that is sterile or cannot carry a child because of risks OR because of a homosexual couple. I am not debating that it doesn’t take both sexes to create a children, but doesn’t take a male and a female to be a family.>As for being parents, you need structure and discipline as much as love...without it, kids take a lot longer to grasp what they need to survive in the world...especially with all the shifting morals these days.Without a doubt children need structure and discipline in their lives. There is nothing hindering a homosexual couple from giving these things to a child along with all the other import aspects of raising a child.>Included with this is some idea of natural roles...something gay parents can't provide.Like? Please specify so you don’t think we are taking you out of context again.>I know I kid with a gay dad who left his wife for a guy. The kid is an angry wreck because his dad is gay. You can't tell me there aren't negative reprecutions for having two men or two women (as opposed to one of each) raise kids.That’s much different than what we are talking about. The child is angry because his father left his mother plus the fact it was with another guy. The child would have been just as angry if the father left for another woman. It’s how this father went about leaving his mother that has the child so angry.And I can certainly tell you there are no negative repercussions about two males or two females raising children. What can cause a lot of repercussions to a child is being moved from foster home to foster home or living 18 years in a home because they have no parents to love them. That is detrimental to a child, not having two mothers or two fathers. >As was already pointed out, some people don't bother trying to do the research before pushing an agenda...because what they want to justify is more important to them than the lives of the kids they purport to have so much love and concern for.Can you provide me with factual evidence (not hear say/personal opinion or some religious babble) that says two homosexual raising a child is less effect that a straight couple? Or how about some factual evidence stating the children being raised by two homosexuals come out, in some way, defective, have mental handicaps, or are in some way not civilized or ready for society? If you can provide this to me, than we can talk. But you pulling crap out of your ass does nothing for me, sorry.>Thing is it'll take several generations to undo the mess that's created. That's several generations of needless suffering.My thoughts exactly! Once the older generation of hypocrites and ignorance dies off we’ll finally have true equality. Sad we have to have people “die off” before they see the ignorance of their ways. >I think that until we have a much more complete understanding of the human psyche, gays have no business raising kids.The human psyche is too complex and something us human will never complete understand. Just like we’ll never understand what truly makes a serial killer tick. So expecting a complete understanding of the human brain, you’ll never see it. But saying that makes me think you think homosexuality is a mental illness. Sorry it’s not. I am not insane, I am not mental challenged or mentally “retarded”. The only thing that separates homosexual from heterosexuals is the fact we desire someone of the same sex. Considering everything else that could happen, I think that’s pretty minor.There’s a quote that I really like: “It’s sad that as a society we are more comfortable seeing two guys holding guns than we are with two men holding hands.” Truly makes you think.
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In reply to:
And I can certainly tell you there are no negative repercussions about two males or two females raising children.
How? We havnt seen any proper evidence either way yet and we wont for another generation or so. You may be right but I have no certainty of the fact.
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">Included with this is some idea of natural roles...something gay parents can't provide.Like? Please specify so you don’t think we are taking you out of context again."Like, in your case, how a woman is supposed to treat a man...or how a man is supposed to treat a woman. Don't you think there just might be a little confusion in the minds of children you raise? After studying the psychology of learning, there is no doubt in my mind that there would be. Words alone do not teach...most is learned non-verbally.">I know I kid with a gay dad who left his wife for a guy. The kid is an angry wreck because his dad is gay. You can't tell me there aren't negative reprecutions for having two men or two women (as opposed to one of each) raise kids.That’s much different than what we are talking about. The child is angry because his father left his mother plus the fact it was with another guy. The child would have been just as angry if the father left for another woman. It’s how this father went about leaving his mother that has the child so angry."You are talking completely out of your rear-end on this one. You have absolutely NO IDEA as to why the kid is angry. I know the kid well as I used to work with him...it has to do with the fact that his dad is gay and, since he's not, he has no role-model to look up to...no way does he want to brag about his dad to his friends. The fact that his dad is gay is ever-present in his mind...he feels betrayed and left out of what most other kids have in a father.As for the rest, you can't provide me with any facts or data that suggest a gay couple is just as good at raising kids as straight parents...the burden of proof is on you, my friend. Your statement that the human psyche is too complex is a cop-out. Bottom line: You want to do what you want to do regarding having kids and marriage regardless of the consequences and/or reprecutions to other people and to children. I say "NO".
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In reply to: As for the rest, you can't provide me with any facts or data that suggest a gay couple is just as good at raising kids as straight parents...the burden of proof is on you, my friend. Your statement that the human psyche is too complex is a cop-out. Niether of you have any evidence to back up your arguement. As a fervant Libertarian (not to be confused with "Liberal") I am inclined to side with the the equal rights lobby in this as I do on most issues, but this involves children and thus I maintain a healthy scepticism as a matter of course, as children are not to be taken lightly. However I see no reason to truely discover whether this is harmful or not unless we allow it to take place for at least a generation. Is that a risk worth taking?
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In reply to:The kid is an angry wreck because his dad is gay. You can't tell me there aren't negative reprecutions for having two men or two women (as opposed to one of each) raise kids. Having gone through two divorces in my my childhood, (both heterosexual relationships) I can pretty much guarantee you that that kid was mad about the fact that his father left his mother in the first place. If my father left my mother for a man I wouldn't be any more mad at him than if he left her for a women. My main concern would be the fact that he hurt my mother. Even heterosexual relationships have there negative reprecussions. So in reality they are no better than those in a homosexual relationship.
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Owain, you can't speak for children!I highly doubt gay marriages and gays raising kids would damage a child! And, there have been evidence on both sides! Use the internet.What would you rather choose: A kid to live in an abusive heterosexual home or a peace gay loving home??
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the burden of proof is on you, my friend.Truthfully the burden of truth is on both sides. You give me your opinion I give you mind. You start quoting me some factual proof, so will I. Right now this is an opinionated discussion.>Like, in your case, how a woman is supposed to treat a man...or how a man is supposed to treat a woman. Don't you think there just might be a little confusion in the minds of children you raise? After studying the psychology of learning, there is no doubt in my mind that there would be. Words alone do not teach...most is learned non-verbally.It shouldn’t be how a man treats a woman or how a woman treats a man it should be how we treat ALL human beings. And no there would be no more confusion for a child being raise din a single parent home raising a child without a mother or a father. I am not saying there won’t be the confusion to the child on the part of “why do I have two mommies” or “why do I have two daddies”. That’s something you’d have to explain to a child. Again not much different than a child asking his or her mother “why don’t I have a daddy”. With every child there is going to be difficult questions, its just being a good enough parent to explain to them the situation.>After studying the psychology of learning, there is no doubt in my mind that there would be. Words alone do not teach...most is learned non-verbally.Good for you. I have taken MANY courses in college on therapy, psychology, and sociology. Children don’t only learn human nature and there of by the parents. They are often taught, in today’s society, through TV, friends, and other family members. And I am not a strong believe in “most is learned non-verbally”. I believe that to only be true in homes where there is not a lot of verbal communication. If you are in a home where verbal communication is open and frequently practiced that a child is adept to learn more than a child who has to watch non-verbal actions.>You are talking completely out of your rear-end on this one. You have absolutely NO IDEA as to why the kid is angry. I know the kid well as I used to work with him...it has to do with the fact that his dad is gay and, since he's not, he has no role-model to look up to...no way does he want to brag about his dad to his friends. The fact that his dad is gay is ever-present in his mind...he feels betrayed and left out of what most other kids have in a father.Would he be proud regardless tot ell his friends that his father was cheating on his mother with another woman and left her? Regardless the child would be angry and pissed off, that’s my point. I do not doubt that the child is also upset because his father is gay, but to be honest it’s easier for a child to concentrate on something like his father being gay than to simply accept the fact his father cheated and left his mother. Often time in a situation like this a child will not confront the truth of the matter and instead concentrate on something like his father being gay, it’s called diverting his anger. Regardless his father was wrong, whether it was with a man or another woman. One is not worse than the other.>Your statement that the human psyche is too complex is a cop-out.It’s not a copout it’s the truth. Any psychologist will tell you the same thing. Millions if not billions of dollars a year are used to trying to study the brain and understand what makes people tick and still there cannot figure it out. Point blank, the human brain is too complex to ever fully understand it. Ø Bottom line: You want to do what you want to do regarding having kids and marriage regardless of the consequences and/or reprecutions to other people and to children. I say "NO".Good for you... I suggest that you never be gay or raise children rolls eyes (See I can to that too lol). You have not provided any factual consequences to gay people marrying or raising children. I can easily go to google and give you a few links if you lie supporting my opinion. But I doubt it would be well use of my time because I can tell regardless what you read you won’t sway from your opinion, which is your call.
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How? We havnt seen any proper evidence either way yet and we wont for another generation or so. You may be right but I have no certainty of the fact.Actually there are many studying and testimonies on children who grew up in a homosexual coupled family and they have turned out normal, if not actually more accepting of people and cultures.I thought what was also very interesting about the studies I have read is that none of the children were gay. It makes a good cause against people thinking the homosexuality is nurture not nature.