Religion should be outlawed.

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Originally Posted By: unsupervisedI think you're just going to have to take solace in your faith and ignore everyone else. Like it or not, non-christians and not-like-you-christians are going to continue to get married everywhere in the world. You can't stop it and, apparently, god does not see a need to stop it.You must have missed the part where I stated what other folks do and whatever they choose to call it doesn't matter to me. Simply leave Christianity alone. Quote:Though you've avoided addressing my situation directly, my marriage did not fit your criteria. Therefore, you know I was never married and naturally, my son is illegitimate.Does this bother me? Not in the least. I know I was married and that my son is not a bastard (though he can be a little creep sometimes)So if certain groups of christians (definitely not all of them) do not accept my marriage, that has absolutely no bearing on my life. Just as my marriage should have no bearing on yours.that is all. I'm fine with that. You have not attempted to redefine or pervert what it means to be married...it just means something different to you than what it does to me. Can you see the difference?

I think we are actually making progress, thor. There's a great deal I would like to discuss, but I would like first to understand better your opinion on marriage. For each of the following examples, I would like to know whether it constitutes in your belief a valid, real, marriage (including any extra conditions, or if you are unsure).

Note on the various nations:

The US has no official state religion; 78.5% of inhabitants identify as Christian.

England has an official established religion, the Church of England. 71.6% of inhabitants identify as Christian, though church attendance is low and 67% of marriages are now civil ceremonies, not church ceremonies.

Israel does not have a defined state religion, though the Jewish religion has particular bonds to the state. 75.5% of the population are ethnic Jews, though some are not religious: in 1999 only 65% believed in God. Civil marriages are not legally valid in Israel unless carried out outside Israel.

Turkey is a secular state with no state religion; 98% of the inhabitants are Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state. Islamic law is strictly applied. Marriages in other religions would be illegal. All citizens must be Muslims; it is estimated that 97% of inhabitants are Muslims.

Now the situations. In each case I assume that the ceremony and minister are legally accepted in the state - where this is possible - and accepted as valid by the religion in which they are conducted, if any. I assume that the participants are competent adults of opposite gender, who honestly declare their intention to marry. Which of these are real marriages?

1. A Christian ceremony conducted in (a) the US; (b) England; (c) Israel; (d) Turkey; (e) Saudi Arabia

2. A Jewish ceremony conducted in (a) the US; (b) England; (c) Israel; (d) Turkey; (e) Saudi Arabia

3. A Sunni Muslim ceremony conducted in (a) the US; (b) England; (c) Israel; (d) Turkey; (e) Saudi Arabia

4. A civil ceremony, carried out in a government non-religious building, with no mention of God, conducted in (a) the US; (b) England; (c) Israel; (d) Turkey; (e) Saudi Arabia

Originally Posted By: thor

Originally Posted By: sdp

Then it's possible for your/"our" God to be the false God....

Not from my point of view. :smile:

My personal faith aside, a study of the Koran would, in this instance, be helpful in showing why.

Seriously though, the idea that the god of any and all monotheistic belief systems must be one and the same seems pretty stupid to me.

Showing that the god of Islam (which is the same god, just twisted a bit) is a false god (which you have not shown), in no way makes yours the true god. Is it not possible that there is a true god but he has yet to reveal himself to us?

Originally Posted By: thor

I'm fine with that. You have not attempted to redefine or pervert what it means to be married...it just means something different to you than what it does to me. Can you see the difference?

yes, I do see, thank you. The difference is that you don't like homosexuality. For all your grandiose statements of the covenant of christian marriage, it's only homosexuality that you abhor. it would seem you would rather see secular, failed, straight marriage than christian, successful, gay marriage.

--- I accept that you will argue that that last example cannot be Christian but faith is self determined. God does not stamp your green card

Originally Posted By: unsupervised

Originally Posted By: thor

I'm fine with that. You have not attempted to redefine or pervert what it means to be married...it just means something different to you than what it does to me. Can you see the difference?

yes, I do see, thank you. The difference is that you don't like homosexuality. For all your grandiose statements of the covenant of christian marriage, it's only homosexuality that you abhor. it would seem you would rather see secular, failed, straight marriage than christian, successful, gay marriage.

--- I accept that you will argue that that last example cannot be Christian but faith is self determined. God does not stamp your green card

No such thing as a "Christian gay marriage". It's a contradiction in terms, and no state decree of legality will make any difference it this. What it WOULD/WILL make a difference in is how marriage is perceived by the general populace...including with the children, who are already confused enough as it is. And, as evidenced by the actions of gay activists, our children have been a target of theirs all along.

Let me paint an analogy that might help you. Imagine our society exists at the foot of a dam...one that holds back the waters of war, pestilance, calamity and all forms of civil strife. Behind this dam are beams of support to shore it up...and shortly past that all our "homes"; representing marriage and the family unit. Now in come a bunch of folks who want their "homes" within the society too...but in order to get them some of the beams that support the dam must be torn down to make room for them. So, what do you do? Do you tear down the beams and risk the entire society for the sake of a few, or not?

Life is not always fair...and there are always some that must make sacrifices for the good of all. Failure to be willing to do so is a common, selfish failing of the human species.

A rather over-dramatic analogy, don't you think? There have been many many changes to society over the centuries that conservatives have argued would destroy civilisation, but life goes on.thor, could I direct your attention to the questions on marriage I asked a few posts above?

Originally Posted By: Ineligible

A rather over-dramatic analogy, don't you think? There have been many many changes to society over the centuries that conservatives have argued would destroy civilisation, but life goes on.

No...I think it's a good analogy. Life does go on...such as it is. Most scholars that reflect on the peak of our standard of living quote the 50's as our high-point. And we can see that with regard to the percentage of struggling single parents, the standard of living, and other indicative stats, we are headed downwards...not upwards, as Obama would have us all believe. With the removal of the supporting beams, one will not likely bring the dam down...but it's the chipping away at the support structure that will eventually lead to its collapse...and nobody is to say which lost supporting beam will be the one that leads us to the chain-reaction of events that will break the dam; until it's too late to do anything about it, of course. Again, it's not worth the risk to us all.

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thor, could I direct your attention to the questions on marriage I asked a few posts above?

I saw your questions...you're still stuck on cerimony. While it is certainly indicative of the reality, the reality lies with God and the couple involved. As to the effects on society, take a look at the social problems in any secular country to have a possible glimpse into the future of our country. France is a good example. What a stinking mess that could blow up in their faces any day now. Without the EU to tie them all together eonomically, they'd be in even worse shape than they are. Obama is certainly priming us for the same fate. :frowning:

I'm not at all stuck on ceremony, thor. What I am trying to do is find out what your beliefs are. Unfortunately, despite being very willing to attack the beliefs of others because they disagree with your own, you seem reluctant to clarify what your own actually are. Perhaps you are not confident that they will stand up to the light?

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Most scholars that reflect on the peak of our standard of living quote the 50's as our high-point.
You do surprise me. Citations?

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take a look at the social problems in any secular country
But the US is a secular country. What social problems in France are you thinking of?

Originally Posted By: IneligibleI'm not at all stuck on ceremony, thor.Yes, you are. Go back and look at your questions. Quote:What I am trying to do is find out what your beliefs are.To what end? I think they're pretty clear and well defined already. Quote:Unfortunately, despite being very willing to attack the beliefs of others because they disagree with your own, you seem reluctant to clarify what your own actually are.That's got to be the single most hypocritical statement anybody on this board has ever made.

The single most? you have got to be picking my ASS.

Originally Posted By: Grvtykllr

The single most? you have got to be picking my ASS.

Judging by what comes out the front end, I have no desire to investigate what comes out the back end.

WHy thor, what I said was not meant to be taken literally, it was a figure of speech the fact you decided to take it literally...I think that you talking about rooting around in my ass makes you bi-curious.Are you speaking out against your own agenda when you spout off on this board? covering your true feelings so that you will not be outed?

"America," said Joseph Stalin, "is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."

who the fuck said joey was right? and why do you automatically equate morality and spiritual life to equal god?

That quote is widely reproduced on right-wing sites, but without citations, and it doesn't ring true. Soviet leaders did not refer to America as 'healthy', and a man famous for religious persecution in his own country would hardly think a spiritual life was an asset to another.

Originally Posted By: Ineligible...and it doesn't ring true.To who...you? Who are you...some expert on Joseph Stalin? Perhaps an expert on Soviet history? Wait...I know...the expert on everything. The man who is never wrong! roflmao Quote:Soviet leaders did not refer to America as 'healthy', and a man famous for religious persecution in his own country would hardly think a spiritual life was an asset to another. If you knew anything at all about Stalin, you'd know that he did/said whatever he wanted to; because if anybody had a beef with it they'd find themselves dead or on the way to a gulag early the next morning. And dead men are notoriously difficult to get citations from.But a true quote or not...verifiable or not...the gist is right on the money. Who cares who said it. Those things that have historically united this country are being eroded by folks just like you...folks who think they are smarter than has ever existed in any previous generation, and who think they know better than anybody else ever has since the dawn of time. (What's the term those liberals use? Ahh, yes..."enlightened.") But those who fail to learn from history will certainly repeat it. Have fun!

Quote:Most scholars that reflect on the peak of our standard of living quote the 50's as our high-point by scholars, you obviously mean Hannity, Beck and O'Riely, because is exactly the tune they have been singing lately. bull shit!the 50s... segregation, cold war, McCarthyism, outlawed interracial marriage, good fucking times for a white male conservative I guess.A veritable utopia for a bigot! I can understand your sense of nostalgia.Here's an analogy for you. A minority of self righteous conservatives living on the beautiful shores of a man made lake, not giving a rats ass about the rest of the world, suffering down river from the dam.

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Yes, you are. Go back and look at your questions.
My questions are trying to find out your beliefs, thor. I pointed out that Biblical marriage ceremonies, as distinct from celebrations, don't exist, and you got all hot under the collar, so I presumed they matter to you.

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To what end? I think they're pretty clear and well defined already.
So we can have a proper discussion. Most of your arguing is "no, that isn't right" - but you don't say much about what you think is right. Your beliefs may seem clear and well-defined to you, but what you have expressed here is extremely vague.

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That's got to be the single most hypocritical statement anybody on this board has ever made.
Oh no, I think not.

Quote:To who...you?You mean "to whom". But I am glad to get the recognition.  Quote:But a true quote or not...verifiable or not...the gist is right on the money. Who cares who said it.If it didn't matter who said it, why would the (purported) author be mentioned? Surely the force of the quotation is due to its supposedly coming from an enemy of America famous for his ruthlessness - 'if even Stalin thinks this, it must be true'. It's a lot weaker if the author is (as I think likely) some unknown American conservative hack.

Quote: Originally Posted By: IneligibleA rather over-dramatic analogy, don't you think? No...I think it's a good analogy. Actually, I agree that the dam analogy is great and very tellingA dam, like religion, is a man made structure, designed to alter or block the natural flow and exert the will of the few upon the world of the many. If one chooses to live on the reclaimed land, directly in the shadow of that unnatural structure, others can hardly feel sympathetic when there are signs of erosion and a few leaks.As for me, I had the wisdom and foresight to live no where near that dam. So whether or not it breaks, I know that my family and my home are perfectly safe.