Totally speechless

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Originally Posted By: Ineligible Quote:...unless you stop and consider that without the church there would BE no such thing as marriage.I'm trying to understand what you are thinking when you say that, thor. Do you believe people didn't marry in pre-Christian times - in the Roman Republic, or imperial China, or in Old Testament Israel? Do you believe non-Christians now don't marry, or that they only know how to marry because the Christian church taught them how to?Boy oh boy...do you love controversy. With all the hornets nests you stir up it's a wonder you still have a badge of office around here. I have no badge of office, so I don't have to be so nicey-nice. The marriage this government recognized (that's right...NOT created) is of the Judeo-Christian version. So in this country (and that's all we're discussing here) it is between a man, a woman, and God. Most telling is the involvement of God in the service you'll get at the courthouse. He is of the Judeo-Christian variety, just as it was 200 years (and more) ago. You can try and change or erase history all you want...it may convince fools, but won't change the reality of it. Quote:Or do you believe, rather, that only Christian weddings are valid? That would a valid religious belief, but should the state's laws on spouses only apply to Christian weddings? Would that not be unconsitutional? And if you can swallow the state treating as spouses those you believe are not validly married, because according to their own beliefs they are married, why not be consistent about it? I think I already answered most of this above, but should add that the state does recognize marriages of churches of other religions. Maybe homosexuals should start their own religion? Whether they do or not, any marriage therein would not be of the Judeo-Christian variety that is traditional to this country. For some, like Eddie, that seems to be fine. For others, it's not...they won't rest until they destroy a piece of this countries history and forever mar what it means to be married for future generations. Even the decidedly liberal state of California would seem to agree.

The most patriotic thing an American can do in regards to this is to hope that Obama does well as President. I greatly admire the McCain supporters who have taken this outlook. Anyone who says that Obama will screw up the country without him having even done anything as President should be ashamed of themselves.

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The marriage this government recognized (that's right...NOT created) is of the Judeo-Christian version.

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the state does recognize marriages of churches of other religions
These statements contradict each other.

I should point out, BTW, that I don't believe the concept that only Judeo-Christian marriages have any validity is Biblical. Paul believed that new converts' marriages made before conversion should be respected (1 Cor 7).

It's also worth noting that the older tradition was to recognise couples as married if they were living together, whether there had been a formal ceremony or not; hence the term "common-law wife". The requirement for a marriage ceremony and certificate is relatively recent.

I'm surprised, thor, by your statement "Most telling is the involvement of God in the service you'll get at the courthouse". Here a marriage can be conducted by a religious celebrant (a minister of religion, usually though not necessarily in a place of worship), or a civil celebrant. If it's a civil ceremony there would normally be no mention of God, as such ceremonies are usually chosen by people of no religious belief. Is this not possible in the US?

Originally Posted By: Ineligible Quote:The marriage this government recognized (that's right...NOT created) is of the Judeo-Christian version. Quote:the state does recognize marriages of churches of other religionsThese statements contradict each other.No, they don't. To clarify, the first is what this country started out with and adopted as its own...the second happened later. Taking things out of context often confuses the meaning further rather than making it easier to understand. Refer to the questions being answered. Quote:I should point out, BTW, that I don't believe the concept that only Judeo-Christian marriages have any validity is Biblical. We're not talking about what's Biblical or not. That's a different subject. Quote:It's also worth noting that the older tradition was to recognise couples as married if they were living together, whether there had been a formal ceremony or not; hence the term "common-law wife". The requirement for a marriage ceremony and certificate is relatively recent.The additional requirement is known as "regulation", and the term "common-law" had to do with couples where it was not known what kind of cerimoney (if any) had been performed or not (no filing of papers). Ultimately replaced by regulations regarding marriages...until the term became useful again in our modern culture where it became common for unmarried couples to live together. Quote:I'm surprised, thor, by your statement "Most telling is the involvement of God in the service you'll get at the courthouse". Here a marriage can be conducted by a religious celebrant (a minister of religion, usually though not necessarily in a place of worship), or a civil celebrant. If it's a civil ceremony there would normally be no mention of God, as such ceremonies are usually chosen by people of no religious belief. Is this not possible in the US? It's possible...but must be requested. In other words, it is not the norm that has been in place for over 200 years.Have you no knowledge of the history of this country and who it was founded by? Who wrote the Constitution? The Declaration of Independence? 95% Christian and 100% believers in the Bible. Those are the folks this country owes a debt of gratitude to.

Originally Posted By: Rad Originally Posted By: thor Maybe homosexuals should start their own religion? Whether they do or not, any marriage therein would not be of the Judeo-Christian variety that is traditional to this country. If you're thinking that Gay people don't have a church, a Christian Church, they do.http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home If it's a Christian church then they have to abide by Christian values, and so can't get married to the same sex. Otherwise, it's not really a Christian church. The kind of church I'm talking about is one of their own...not a Christian one.

Originally Posted By: CiderThe most patriotic thing an American can do in regards to this is to hope that Obama does well as President. I greatly admire the McCain supporters who have taken this outlook. Anyone who says that Obama will screw up the country without him having even done anything as President should be ashamed of themselves. I think you're right about supporting Obama. The decision has been made and it's time to stand behind our president.However, anyone who doesn't keep their eye on what's happening with a president this inexperienced is a fool. It didn't take a day for him to be tested in this regard: Medvedev

Originally Posted By: thorHave you no knowledge of the history of this country and who it was founded by? Who wrote the Constitution? The Declaration of Independence? 95% Christian and 100% believers in the Bible. Those are the folks this country owes a debt of gratitude to. You seem to be rather lacking in knowledge about this history. The relationship between religion and government was one of the founders' major concerns and areas of discussion. They essentially rejected the European idea of a state church and a government controlled by strict religious principals. Haven't you heard of the establishment clause? I agree we have a great debt of gratitude to these people- precisely because they wanted to create a SECULAR government with religious freedom for all.Also: I have to agree with others here about marriage. You are simply wrong in your assertions. Marriage has existed virtually everywhere in all times. It is not in any sense a Christain invention.

Originally Posted By: thor Originally Posted By: Rad Originally Posted By: thor Maybe homosexuals should start their own religion? Whether they do or not, any marriage therein would not be of the Judeo-Christian variety that is traditional to this country. If you're thinking that Gay people don't have a church, a Christian Church, they do.http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home If it's a Christian church then they have to abide by Christian values, and so can't get married to the same sex. Otherwise, it's not really a Christian church. The kind of church I'm talking about is one of their own...not a Christian one. Thor, that whole comment right there just truly shows how ignorant you are. I am trying so hard to hold my tongue, because I don't want to stoop to your level.Abide by Christian laws?? Since when have heterosexuals followed Christian laws?? People like you love to pick and choose what they follow from the bible and than try and act like you are better than we are. It drives me INSANE to hear people say stupid shit like this! You “Christians” already ruined the definition of marriage! Homosexuals certainly could do no worse!! So the gay Christian Church is my area is not really a church since the congregation is primarily all homosexuals? So what, we homosexuals now cannot be Christians? We need to make up our own deity? You sir, are the most arrogant and ignorant person I think I have talked to in a VERY long time. It’s Christians like you that give the rest of us a bad name.I’m so tired of close-minded bigots in this country telling me that I am not good enough to marry the person I love. I’m tired of people basically telling me that I am not an equal citizen. I’m so tired of being judge on something that’s none of anyone’s business but my own! My love is MY LOVE, not yours and who the hell are people like you to tell me that my love is wrong and not as equal as yours. You’re a Christian? Sorry not in my book or the book of Jesus Christ.

I am sure it means more to you Kristal, but I am so happy he won!! I fell in love with him when I first watched him speak at the democratic convention for Kerry and I am even more 'in love' with him today. I firmly believe in this man. It was so wonderful to see black and white people standing together and crying together....what an awesome night.

I am so glad Ohio and PA went to him.

Quote:It's possible...but must be requested. In other words, it is not the norm that has been in place for over 200 years.Have you no knowledge of the history of this country and who it was founded by? Who wrote the Constitution? The Declaration of Independence? 95% Christian and 100% believers in the Bible. Those are the folks this country owes a debt of gratitude to. So rather then living in the land of the free, americans should live in the past?I guess some people really don't want this country to be a peaceful place.

Sadly you are right. Some people cannot look past their own bigotry and treat people equally.

Makes me wonder how they would feel if they were told they were not allowed to marry the person they love. It's easy to discriminate when the discrimination doesn't apply to them.

It is utterly STUPID to not want a President to have a successful presidency, regardless of whether or not you supported his candidacy.It is utterly STUPID to ignore the large percentage of people who didn't vote for the new president, as if their voices/wants/needs/opinions don't matter.It is utterly STUPID to miss or ignore or deny the incredible significance of a black president.It is utterly STUPID to want to hang on to bitterness and anger and completely miss the hope that exists regardless of who is president.It is utterly STUPID to believe that change and unity are the chiefest of virtues.It is utterly STUPID to lay aside your own deeply held convictions in the name of unity.It is utterly STUPID to think that all of the problems in America can be laid at the feet of one man or one party.It is utterly STUPID to let your hatred for any man or any party blind you to the good they have all done.It is utterly STUPID of me to think that I can say all this and not get flamed for something. Be that as it may...

Originally Posted By: Thoughtful

Originally Posted By: thor

Have you no knowledge of the history of this country and who it was founded by? Who wrote the Constitution? The Declaration of Independence? 95% Christian and 100% believers in the Bible. Those are the folks this country owes a debt of gratitude to.

You seem to be rather lacking in knowledge about this history. The relationship between religion and government was one of the founders' major concerns and areas of discussion. They essentially rejected the European idea of a state church and a government controlled by strict religious principals. Haven't you heard of the establishment clause? I agree we have a great debt of gratitude to these people- precisely because they wanted to create a SECULAR government with religious freedom for all.

I'm afraid it is you who are lacking in true knowledge of history...no doubt a result of our liberal education system. What was rejected was the idea that government had any say in religion...not the other way around. Folks came to America seeking religious freedom and wanted to ensure it stayed that way. I could easily give you a dozen websites with history of how the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were written and exactly what parts of the Bible were woven into both documents, but I'll save myself the trouble and let you do that, if you're really interested in knowing the truth. It's obviously not what you think. I'll just give you this from George Washington's Thanksgiving Day proclamation (just to get you into the right spirit of things :wink: ):

"In such a state of things it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience. Deeply penetrated with this sentiment, I, George Washington, President of the United States, do recommend to all religious societies and denominations, and to all persons whomsoever, within the United States to set apart and observe Thursday, the 19th day of February next as a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, and on that day to meet together and render their sincere and hearty thanks to the Great Ruler of Nations for the manifold and signal mercies which distinguish our lot as a nation..."

(Note: It was originally set in 1789 to Thursday, Nov 26th)

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Also: I have to agree with others here about marriage. You are simply wrong in your assertions. Marriage has existed virtually everywhere in all times. It is not in any sense a Christain invention.

I don't recall ever saying it was a Christian invention. But the Christian wedding, under the eyes of the appropriate God, most certainly is.

Quote:no doubt a result of our liberal education system the US system is drastically more conservative than in most of the western world. If you find it to be overly liberal, where does that place you on the political spectrum?  Quote: But the Christian wedding, under the eyes of the appropriate God"appropriate"?must be compforting to know all other religions are inappropriate

Originally Posted By: NtroducingMyselfSadly you are right. Some people cannot look past their own bigotry and treat people equally.Makes me wonder how they would feel if they were told they were not allowed to marry the person they love. It’s easy to discriminate when the discrimination doesn’t apply to them. Feelings. Well, not to just take a shot at Eddie, but it seems to me the timing is about right for a little in the way of explanation. If it ticks people off, tough.At its most basic level, liberalism is nothing more than childlike emotionalism applied to adult issues:• Going to war is mean, so we shouldn’t do it.• That person is poor and it would be nice to give them money, so the government should do it. • Somebody wants to have an abortion, have a gay marriage, or wants to come into the U.S. illegally and it would be mean to say, “No,” so we should let them.• We are nice because we care about global warming!• Those people want to kill us? But, don’t they know we’re nice? If they did, they would like us and wouldn’t kill us!• Bill has more toys/money than Harry, so the government should take half of what Bill has and give it to Harry.Obama is a great example. He makes people excited…he makes them FEEL good, with out any substance or basis for this feeling other than that of emotion. For some, that’s all the reason they needed to vote for him.The only exception to this rule is for people who aren’t liberals. They’re racists, bigots, homophobes, Nazis, fascists, etc., etc., etc. They might as well just say that conservatives have “cooties” for disagreeing with them, because there really isn’t any more thought or reasoning that goes into it than that. Now, that’s not to say that conservatives never make emotion-based arguments or that emotion-based arguments are always wrong. But when you try to deal with complex, real world issues, using little more than simplistic emotionalism that’s primarily designed to make the people advocating it feel good rather than to deal with problems, it can, and often has had disastrous consequences. Liberals never seem to learn from this. Why don’t they learn anything from failed liberal policies? Because there is nothing underpinning them other than feelings…and so even when they don’t work, their good intentions are treated, by other liberals at least, as more important than the results of their actions. Just to name one example of many, look at Vietnam. South Vietnam was policing its own country and holding off aggression from the North with the help of the United States. But, people get hurt in wars, so wars are bad. As a result of thinking that went no deeper than that, liberals in Congress cut off the aid and air support we promised the South Vietnamese. The result? The conquest of South Vietnam, a holocaust in Cambodia, millions dead or in prison camps and another million boat people looking for a place to live. On top of that, a crisis of confidence in America and our country’s reputation around the world being left in tatters…which played a part in a revolution in Nicaragua, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and a lack of faith in the U.S. military which wasn’t truly restored until Operation Desert Storm. So, we’re talking about one of the most shameful and damaging mistakes in American history. Yet, the left is pushing to do the same thing in Iraq, despite the fact that catastrophic consequences would surely follow a premature U.S. retreat from that country. You could go on and on with these sort of examples — rent control, which causes housing shortages…the minimum wage, which costs poor people jobs…the liberal insistence on putting “making nice at the U.N.” above looking out for American interests. That’s what happens when you make decisions based on emotion and wanting people to like you, rather than using logic and doing the right thing in spite of what others might think. Unlike liberals, conservatives tend to be primarily concerned with pragmatism…not niceties. This is one of the biggest reasons that conservatives have such a healthy respect for the traditions and institutions that have been proven to work over time, and such contempt for those that don’t…like the United Nations and the federal government. If it’s not broken, don’t fix it. If it’s broken, let the elements rot it away.Does that mean conservatives are opposed to change? No, not at all…but there is a great reluctance to tinker with ideas and concepts that have proven successful time and time again throughout history. That’s because the more they’re changed, the more likely they are not to work anymore. Moreover, in Thomas Sowell’s immortal words, conservatives believe that, “There are no solutions; there are only trade-offs.” Because of this, conservatives regularly do something that liberals seldom do: they consider the long-term consequences of their policies! It’s rarely putting a band-aid on a boo-boo, to help it feel better, here and now. Politics are a tough, dirty job. It’s always easier to say, “We’re going to use someone else’s tax money to give you this right now,” than it is to say, “We’re going to keep government out of your way and let you do this for yourself.” But, that’s the path conservatives have chosen for themselves. They’re willing to be attacked and called, in some form or fashion, “mean” in order to advocate policies that are good for the country for years to come. In the end, that’s what liberalism versus conservatism all comes down to: sappy, feel good emotionalism that sounds appealing, but doesn’t work versus doing things the right way, even when it’s not easy and can cause some pain. I know…I’ll probably get called ‘mean’, ‘nazi’, ‘hater’, ‘bigot’, ‘fascist’ (you may want to look up the definition of that last one before using it) etc, etc by a few liberals that read this. Some will just read this and say, “hmm”…but it won’t be the first time (or the last).If you want proof, please, look up the liberal policies. They were designed for the here and now without thought of consequences to 5-10-15 years down the road. A vast, VAST majority have failed and are being blamed elsewhere (usually on some poor conservative who holds the office 5-10-15 years later).

Originally Posted By: unsupervised  Quote: But the Christian wedding, under the eyes of the appropriate God"appropriate"?must be compforting to know all other religions are inappropriate Appropriate for Christians, you silly man.

which Christians?Mormon?Catholic?Unitarian?Baptist?Anglican?how do you know who's wrong?oh, and your views on Liberalism are draconian and totally out of touch with the modern world... OH and much of what you critisize as the doctrines of liberals are also the doctrines of Christ. funny that

Originally Posted By: unsupervisedwhich Christians?Mormon?Catholic?Unitarian?Baptist?Anglican?how do you know who's wrong?Why does somebody have to be wrong? As long as they're Christian...know them by their fruits. Quote:oh, and your views on Liberalism are draconian and totally out of touch with the modern world... OH and much of what you critisize as the doctrines of liberals are also the doctrines of Christ. funny that All in the eyes of a liberal. Oh...and I'll be sure and add "draconian" to the list of "mean" words.

Quote:Why does somebody have to be wrong? As long as they're Christian...know them by their fruits and the Christians that approve of gay marrage? or are those the bad kind of fruits?

Originally Posted By: unsupervised  Quote:Why does somebody have to be wrong? As long as they're Christian...know them by their fruits and the Christians that approve of gay marrage? or are those the bad kind of fruits? I thought the gay people getting married were the fruits? I'm kidding! I'm kidding!